tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8552682727548828725.post781664527277399560..comments2023-10-17T05:01:42.650-04:00Comments on Abandoning Eden: Article on intermarriageAbandoning Edenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12696116071749613265noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8552682727548828725.post-45564701831063022212011-07-08T12:58:15.665-04:002011-07-08T12:58:15.665-04:00I just noticed this post - sorry for chiming in a ...I just noticed this post - sorry for chiming in a few years late.<br /><br />I do agree that indifference often precedes intermarriage.<br /><br />I'd also add that for years I've thought it bizarre to trot out stats about the dismal rate of Jewish continuity among the intermarried, when it was often the rest of the Jewish community wasn't exactly actively embracing their families.<br /><br />That said, I don't really like the message that seemed to be saying that strong Jews can marry non-Jews with the idea that they'll change and become Jewish. Maybe that works if you are Moses or a king...but even King Solomon had issues when he brought in worship of foreign gods for his wives. Most of us, though, are not rulers. A healthy modern marriage means give and take, and expecting someone to change for you is a recipe for disaster.<br /><br />Sometimes Judaism was part of the attraction for the non-Jewish spouse, and I do know several who became more involved Jewishly (even if they did not convert) than their spouses. For some reason, this seems more common when the wife is the non-Jewish spouse. I think there needs to be a framework to welcome these spouses (reviving something akin to the "ger toshav" concept, perhaps - in other words, recognizing that someone is residing among us, committing to a basic ethical code and being an ally to the Jewish people, although they haven't taken on the full burden of all of the mitzvot for Jews).Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8552682727548828725.post-76277147341240447502007-12-27T10:36:00.000-05:002007-12-27T10:36:00.000-05:00ok, I think that's a fair critisism of the article...ok, I think that's a fair critisism of the article. and i don't agree with everything in the article either, but I think it's a fair critisism of the casuality argument about intermarriage; jewish people to be operating as if it is the act of intermarriage that is moving people away from judaism. I, on the other hand, think that may be true for some people, but also think that in the vast majority of cases, people who intermarry have already moved away from judaism for a variety of reasons, and that stopping intermarriage is not going to stop moving people away from judaism; that people have to look at the root causes and attack those if they want to stop intermarraige (which i clearly don't).<BR/><BR/>Just a point of contention with what you said...there's a difference between orthodox and religious. There are religious reform people, religous conservative people, religious reconstructionist people. I know orthodox people think they have the monopoly on being religious, but one of my pet peeves is when people use "orthodox" and "religious' interchangibly. And I won't be rejected by the religious jewish community...i'd be rejected by the religious orthodox jewish community (I actually had a long convo on intermarriage with a friend of mine who is at a reform rabbi school, and this friend hasn't yet decided if they will be performing marriages for interreligious couples, but has stated that they would be certainly welcomed in his congregation).<BR/><BR/>The rest I think I'm going to respond to with a new post.Abandoning Edenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12696116071749613265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8552682727548828725.post-16649164690905852252007-12-27T05:18:00.000-05:002007-12-27T05:18:00.000-05:00Sigh.So let me restate what I think this author is...Sigh.<BR/><BR/>So let me restate what I think this author is saying. Intermarriage is not a threat to Jewish continuity. Indifference is. An intermarried couple that is engaged in the community is furthering Jewish continuity, same as any fully Jewish couple would be. It is those Jews who are indifferent and disengaged, whether they are intermarried or not, who are a threat to Jewish continuity. Jewish outreach would be better aimed at attacking indifference and disengagement than trying to eliminate intermarriage.<BR/><BR/>Did I get it right? <BR/><BR/>So here's my $.02. Intermarriage is a threat to Jewish continuity. Indifference is a threat to Jewish continuity. Indifference probably leads to intermarriage. And intermarriage probably leads to indifference. We need to attack both. <BR/><BR/>In the example that the author gives of an intermarried couple that actively furthers Jewish continuity through their engagement in the community, the "Roy Sparrow" example, the couple was ultimately not an intermarried couple. Roy converted. So I don't get that. Had he stayed non-Jewish, he would not have been as engaged in the Jewish community. So what does this example support?<BR/><BR/>Citing the Biblical examples is just unfair and somewhat inaccurate. When kings married in biblical times, they generally converted their wives. Tzipporah certainly converted, along with Yitro, her father. If we are going to be consistent and cite Biblical examples, what about the fact that Abraham went out of his way to see that his son Isaac did not marry a daughter of Canaan? What about the fact that Machlon and Kilyon were both punished/died for marrying Moabite princesses? And honestly, since when do progressive secular Jews use the Bible as a source for proving ANYTHING? Really? Let's be intellectually honest here. <BR/><BR/>Look, the bottom line is, intermarriage eats away at the fabric of Jewish continuity. So does apathy. The difference between intermarriage and apathy is that apathy is more easily remedied, through education and engagement. Intermarriage is more or less permanent. <BR/><BR/>I'm not railing against intermarriage here; I'm simply saying that you cannot have it both ways. When you make a choice to have a non-Jewish spouse, you need to take responsibility for your choice. If you are male, your children will be halachically non-Jewish. Period. Even if you are female, your children will most likely be brought up in a home suffused with religious confusion. If you intermarry, you will be rejected by the religious Jewish community. You made a choice; you cannot have it both ways.<BR/><BR/>When you choose a life partner of a different faith, you are saying that romantic love is more important than anything else, including your Jewish heritage. The thing is, this is not a religious Jewish value. I'm sorry, but it just isn't. Love doesn't conquer all. If it did, David wouldn't have been punished for having an affair with Bathsheba. There are things that are more important than love.<BR/><BR/>Look, it's a hard pill to swallow in the 21st century, because as human beings, we crave romantic love. Love makes us happy. And it seems so instinctive to choose happiness and love over a seemingly antiquated religion that means almost nothing to some of us. So that's the real issue...make Judaism meaningful in a way that it will become so important to Jewish singles that they would not even think of seeking a non-Jewish spouse who didn't share in their religion. I think that's the only part of the article that I agree with.<BR/><BR/>So getting back to you, AE...I've told you that I'm an Orthodox Jew, but I'm not going to lecture you on having a non-Jewish boyfriend because that's not really the problem....it's a symptom of your disengagement, your atheism, your rejection of Torah. How can ANYONE tell you not to marry a non-Jew if you don't believe in God and think Jewish practice is a bunch of bs? Of course you're going to date someone non-Jewish. Who else are you going to date, a Kollel guy?<BR/><BR/>What I am going to suggest is that you try to re-educate yourself a little about Judaism, if you care to. You've obviously had some horrible experiences in the Jewish educational system, and I wish that weren't so. Why don't you take the summer off and go to Israel? Visit one of the programs at Neve or Aish for a few days and throw all of your hardest questions at them...challenge the hell out of them and let them rise to the occasion. (Ask them about chicken-footed ghosts!) Give yourself one last chance at dealing with your Judaism before you plunge into a serious marriage commitment with your boyfriend. I'm not trying to brainwash you or be <I>mekarev</I> you, I'm really not. I don't think everyone Jewish should be frum. I'm just telling you that who you marry will be the most important choice you ever make, so before you make it, be sure you know what you are sacrificing. <BR/><BR/>-WGWebGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03136375487829231176noreply@blogger.com