Thursday, September 1, 2011

How I went OTD and left the Jewish Community for good: Part 6

Read Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 and Part 5

My second year of grad school I managed to win a really big national multi-year fellowship that paid a significantly higher stipend (still not anything great, but a several thousand dollar raise). I moved on up to a 2 bedroom apartment in a converted rowhouse that was mostly rented by grad students, still in the not-too-great part of the city, but at least pretty big compared to the 20 by 14 space I was living in previously. Even if it was dark as a cave in most of the house (other than the sun porch) cause it was a rowhouse next to an alleyway full of trash, where a dumpster was noisily emptied every morning at 6:30am right behind my bedroom window. Even if there were holes in the sink and the bathtub and the washer and drier didn't really work so you had to dry everything 3 times, and I STILL felt afraid of leaving the house at night, until we got Barkley (our first dog). Even if my upstairs neighbor was once robbed at gunpoint right down the block, and she stored some of her dissertation work in my apartment and took off for her parents house until the locks were changed, cause he had stolen her drivers license AND her keys (and even worse, a hotkey with 3 months of work on her dissertation on it that she lost forever).

At least there were no roaches or mice! I also finally got cable tv for the first time in my life- my parents didn't have it, and I couldn't afford it when dorming or my first year of grad school. I had a living room where I could have guests over, and a small backyard where I held several BBQs for all the new friends I eventually made. I ended up living in that apartment for five years.


My home for most of grad school and my first 'official' apartment with B. You can even see the dumpster in the alley behind the barbed wire fence! Awwww I miss this place..

Throughout grad school I worked every summer as a research assistant for various professors. Once I was advanced enough that the school would let me, I taught night classes to supplement my stipend income. I still didn't have a car. By taking every opportunity for a job that I could get and not buying a car or spending any money on things other than living expenses and the occasional music show or festival (ok, up to 30 small music shows during my happiness project- but the majority in the 5-10$ range and I volunteered at shows and festivals to get in for free), I was able to save up over $30k in addition to being able to meet my living expenses. I had a few roommates at various times to help split expenses for my 2 bedroom apartment and saved even more money. I wanted to save as much money as I could, cause I was determined to never have to beg my parents for money. Even though my mom had said they would not give me any money help again, I knew I could probably get help from them if I was really desperate- but I also knew that money would come with strings attached, because my parents' money ALWAYS came with strings attached. And I was determined to be string-free.

One thing that really helped in leaving the jewish community after my split with the young adult jewish community for good was finding another community that I landed in for a few years. M, the same guy who told me at 15 that he sometimes wrote poetry on shabbas and changed my life forever, also was the one who introduced me to this community my senior year in college- the neo-hippie/jamband community of the northeast. In grad school, especially during my year long happiness project I became heavily involved in the local hippie scene. The same folks went to the same shows and festivals over and over (especially the ones who were dating or married to band members), and became my new community.

They taught me an entirely different way of living- give freely of whatever you have extra and don't take more than you need, help other people whenever you can and don't expect anything in return, treat people fairly, accept everyone no matter how different, clean up after yourself and respect the earth and your fellow humans and treat them with love and compassion, assume the best of people instead of the worst, and if you do this (especially while hanging out in a whole community of people who do this), wonderful things will happen. Some people might argue that some of these are also Jewish values, but the hippie community is where I learned them and began to live by them. It was hippies who first gave me the idea for a happiness project at all, although my therapist was very enthusiastic about the idea.

Almost weirdly, the "happiness" part of my happiness project started to take hold during my year off from dating when I spent most of my time with hippies. For the first time in over a decade I felt completely happy with my life, and with myself, and my self confidence began to grow as I spent time in a community that practices radical acceptance. At the time my friend M commented that I was much less "bitchy" then I used to be, which he attributed to my hanging out with the hippie scene. But it was more than that. It was freedom. Once I wasn't living with my parents anymore, and not going to their house every weekend and spending all weekend fighting about religion, once I had gotten over that initial shock/transition period of moving to a new place, once I wasn't forcing myself to go to Jewish events out of a sense of guilt and obligation rather than any personal enjoyment, it was like a weight was lifted. I became a nicer person as a result of being more happy in my life.

Halfway through my third year of grad school, a few weeks after finishing my year long happiness project, I met my (non-jewish) husband B. After a few weeks of dating he started calling me his girlfriend, which almost gave me a panic attack again when I realized I was in a serious relationship with someone not jewish, whom my parents would never approve of. But I was sunk. I had never met someone I just wanted to spend EVERY SINGLE moment with, not even my ex fiance. He was brilliant and as smart as I was, and we could talk about politics and religion and society and everything until the end of time and not run out of interesting things and ideas to talk about (still haven't, almost 5 years later- one of our good friends has told me several times that she loves just watching us have crazy long conversations together because they are always so interesting). We certainly don't agree on several things (nothing actually important to our lives though, and the conversations wouldn't be as interesting if we always agreed), but we both share a love for ideas and intellectual debates. And he WAS willing to move with me wherever I ended up for my career, which I made sure of very early in our relationship after my experience with my ex.

After a few weeks and several dates we hooked up for the first time on a friday night, and I just stayed at his apartment the entire weekend. On Monday we both had to go to school (He was finishing up his undergrad degree at the time), and he said to come back that night when I was done with classes. Since then we have barely gone a single day without seeing each other (except when I have to travel for business). I would spend every night at his house, walk back to my apartment (5-6 blocks away) in the morning and take care of my cats and get ready for school, and then go back to his place right after my classes were over. Sometimes we would stay up till 2 or 3 in the morning just having long rambling conversations about everything. Sometimes we would even stay up all night having those conversations. Sometimes we still do. :)

I told my parents about him a couple of months after we started dating, and my mom told me that if I married someone not Jewish it would be like I was a serial killer or a child molester- she would still love me but wouldn't be able to have a relationship with me. My parents started sending me long letters about why I should marry jewish people, many of which are documented on this blog. B moved in to my apartment 'for reals' at the end of my 4th year (which my parents found out about shortly afterward), and we got married at the end of my 5th. I used part of my savings to pay for our wedding and had the small intimate and completely not-jewish wedding we both wanted. In the middle of the woods. We had 20 guests and after an 11 minute ceremony (according to the video) we had an outdoor picnic, and it was totally perfect. That story is already well documented on my blog, so I'm not going to rehash it.

At the end of my 6th year, when I was 28, I graduated and we both moved to the south where I had gotten a job as a tenure-track Sociology professor. With my savings and some help from my in-laws, we bought a pretty sweet house last year (3 bedrooms AND a hot tub!). We finally live in a nice (middle class) neighborhood where I DON'T feel afraid leaving the house at night, in the best public school district in the city. The closest Orthodox Jewish community is an hour and a half away. Sadly I've had to leave my hippie community as well, but over the last year I've been slowly meeting some deadheads and other local hippies and building up a new community, and working in academia as a professor is a community in and of itself.

I will not say it's been easy. My parents haven't given me a dime since I graduated college and moved to grad school, which was 7 years ago today, and I would not accept any money from them even if they offered (which they don't) since I know it comes with strings attacked. Knowing I had no 'safety net' of parents to turn to made me very cautious with money, and I burned with jealousy over some of my fellow students who had parents who helped them pay for nice apartments. I lived in bad neighborhoods, in bad housing, battled mice and roaches, and have never been able to afford to buy a car (my husband came with one free, so now we have one). I didn't achieve a middle class lifestyle until I was 28. I wasn't even able to escape the Jewish community until I was 22, and have spent half the time I have been OTD living a double life in the Jewish community.

But I made it, and I made it to the point where I have a good job and a good life and a good living situation, even if it took me many years of crap situations to get here. And despite those crap situations, those 2 years where I got to spend most of my week on my own in NYC, and the 6 years in grad school where I was completely free of my parents and not having to pretend I was religious, are some of the happiest years in my life. Immeasurably happier compared to my childhood and my teenage years, because I was FINALLY able to live a life that's completely free of religion, in which I had complete freedom to live the way I wanted to, and in which I was(and am) the only person who decides how I live. Although nowadays I usually take my husband's feelings into account too. :)

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So that's my story. Do you have a story you'd like to share? If you're not a blogger but would like to write a guest post about how you went OTD and left the Jewish community, I would love to post it here for you- email your story and whatever name you would like to have it posted with to me at abandoningeden@gmail.com . I reserve the right to edit your post for grammar and spelling before posting it here.

61 comments:

  1. I just want to say that this old hippie woman is proud to be part of your community, somehow, some way.

    You're an amazing woman, Ms. Eden.

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  2. Thanks for writing your story, well written and very interesting.

    I am still living the double life, but am trying to bring in a better income so I can move out soon and be FREE :)

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  3. Glad you're happy and have the life you want. Again, saddened that your connection to your heritage is so poisoned that you want nothing to do with that.

    I personally have a problem with inter-marriage, not from the Jewish perspective, but I've seen kids who have REAL problems in their teenage years and into their 20s from it... awful situations with dating and not fitting in. But, from that point of view, you're NOT actually intermarried, you wrote off your Jewish heritage, you've embraced your husband's faith's culture. If he became "more religious" and wanted kids to be baptized, first communion, Christmas/Easter Mass, etc., none of that would seem to bother you (people tend to re-embrace religion as they go through lifecycle events with their children), you're NOT raising the children as both etc. In fact, that only time your Jewish heritage would ever come up is if your children were dating Jews and talking conversion, since they'd be Jewish regardless of upbringing. That's NOT an inter-marriage except under Jewish law, which doesn't apply to you since you rejected it.

    I'm glad you found a community of people, the northeast hippy world is a strange and adorable one. Glad everything is working out. You should be fine with the tenure issue since you aren't a coastal snob, my friends that have gone to the South/Midwest for tenure positions have all been fine, the coastal positions are more brutal).

    Thanks for sharing your store.

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  4. I love reading your stuff and you are a wonderful person, too!

    Added your story here: https://sites.google.com/site/otdresources/otd-stories

    Take care ;)

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  5. Miami Al-

    Just to clarify, my husband is a strong atheist and is not part of another religion, and he will be the first to tell you that no one is baptizing our future kids. :)

    We do celebrate Christmas with his family, and I have no problem continuing to celebrate it, since the way we celebrate is completely not religious- just a family gathering with presents and a decorated tree. But I would NOT be cool with having our kids baptized, or get first communion or confirmed or whatever. And neither would my husband. :)

    But I do agree we're not intermarried- we're both atheists. We don't want to raise our children in any religious tradition.

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  6. really, I must have missed that section of the atheist handbook.

    In addition to being an atheist and a hippie I consider myself a secular humanist, and a lot of these ideas are also secular humanist ideas.

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  7. >and I would not accept any money from them even if they offered (which they don't) since I know it comes with strings attacked.

    There is always some strings attached no matter what when you accept money from someone. I hate having to take money.

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  8. AE,

    "Just to clarify, my husband is a strong atheist and is not part of another religion, and he will be the first to tell you that no one is baptizing our future kids. :) "

    You never know until rubber meats the road. However, generally it is the mom pushing for those events/pictures with a cultural connection. Hence my comment about your husband's "faith's culture," you are clearly participating in the culture of American Christianity, that was kind of my point.

    Your kids aren't growing up with a Christmas Tree and a Menorah, attending Hebrew School and Church, and all the other nonsense that makes intermarried marriages unfair on the children.

    You've posted that you spend time with your husbands family on the holidays, and he doesn't go to Church with them. If the grandparents wanted to take their grandchild to Church services on Christmas, would you two blow a gasket or accept that this is part of their culture and be okay with it.

    I'm so glad JP is the world's authority on "atheist values," values that no atheist I've known ever subscribes to. OTOH, self righteous idiots like JP certainly ACT as those they have those values, even if they pay lip service to religious ones.

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  9. It sounds like she is participating in American normative secular culture, which integrates formerly Christian religious holidays into secular forms.

    My wife's family is atheist, and she was raised as such. They still celebrated Easter (candy, big brunch with family and friends) and Christmas (tree, presents, big dinner with family and friends) without any religious content whatsoever.

    The same phenomenon in a broader sense applies to Halloween. For all but a handful of neo-Pagans in America, and a relative handful of Jews and Christians who are convinced it is a pagan plot, Halloween is not a religious holiday, it is candy and costumes.

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  10. Out of curiosity, if you have kids and one decided to be an Orthodox Jew, how would you handle it?

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  11. I think I would first ask them why they are becoming a BT and try to make sure it wasn't a brainwashing/kiruver thing, but other than that, it's their decision.

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  12. Did you still keep in touch with your Reform friend?

    What sort of not-just-Orthodox Jewish activities were you involved with, aside from the dating scene?

    Once I finally get caught up with my accounting, I may post my story - mostly because I'm starting to realize that most people DON'T choose debates between Alan Dershowitz and Irwin Cotler on anti-hate legislation over pub nights, or go to universities where political protests are far more popular than football games, or have bubbies who wake them up at 3 a.m. to argue about socialism and push them to read "Jews, God and History", or have another bubby who would talk about her Orthodox rebbetzin wearing tallit, or go to an Orthodox shul full of hippies where we all breastfeed toddlers, or edit a Jewish student newspaper with a bunch of other smart Jewish women, or have any idea that Iraqi Jews exist let alone marry one...

    ************************************

    On a different note, it sounds like you were quite lucky, financially-speaking. While it may not have seemed easy, you developed good financial habits, avoided major student debt and got on the road to financial independence fairly early.

    I actually chuckled at the part about not having a middle-class lifestyle until 28. At 28, we were living in a 1 bedroom apt. with a newborn, since it would take dh another 3 years to finish his fellowship.

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  13. "I always tell atheists: Read your Darwin!"

    Just one problem with that -- Darwin was never an atheist!

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  14. And two more problems with it.

    1) Evolutionary biology is compatible with religion. As Conservative pointed out, Charles Darwin was religious.

    2) You don't have to accept evolutionary biology to be an atheist. Consider Lysenkoist "biology" under Stalin.

    Once again, Jewish Pedophile is full of little round things that goats leave behind.

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  15. Some pseudo-philosopher said:
    Darwin is the basis for atheism

    Actually JP, I would concede that point to you, but only if by "Darwin" you mean "Biological Evolution", which you blindly reject and don't even understand.

    Once one accepts evolution, they can still believe in God of course. But for atheists who de-converted from religion, it is often a tipping point. For people who remain religious, it is usually also a tipping point: from a literal interpretation of their particular scripture to a more symbolic view of religion.

    However, Darwin "just" came up with the principal of natural selection and it's the discoveries in BIOLOGY as whole that explains how evolution works, not Darwin's work alone. So you are still completely wrong JP...

    if you can embrace gays, why not pedophiles also, who probably do much less damage to society.

    Sick! How can you confuse sexual orientation with a sexual desire for KIDS?

    How can you say that pedophiles do much less damage? Raped kids can be traumatized for the rest of their life; how is that not damaging? How can you even compare that to two adults of the same sex that fall in love with each other, or are simply physically attracted to each other?

    But eh, you have been censoring my replies on your blog, so I know that I am merely feeding a spineless troll for the sake of exposing his ridiculous ideas.

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  16. JRKmommy- I kinda keep in touch with him on facebook, but he's off doctoring (he was a med student when he had all those dinners) so he has a pretty busy schedule these days.

    For activities outside of the dating scene- that's a really long list, so I'll have to get back to you on that one when I'm less busy. :)

    As for the middle class lifestyle till age 28...yes I realize that's very very fortunate on my part. Most of my friends my age have not had as much luck. Although i think it was a combo of "luck" and working 60+ hours a week for the last 10 years, taking on ridiculous jobs no one else was willing to take, and never buying anything fun. But I wrote that cause I think some people have some pretty unrealistic expectations about what kind of life they will be able to live in their early-mid-late 20s if they don't have parental help.

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  17. An atheist before Darwin could have said...

    I agree with that for the most part. Evolution explains the diversity and complexity of all living organisms, including humans. It fills a pretty big gap that used to be God's niche 1 or 2 centuries ago, which is nothing in human's history.

    Sure there are mysteries that remain unexplained, but I don't see why God is ever the best explanation. As some comedian once said: in all history, all mysteries ever solved turned out to be... not magic.

    Richard Green, the same psychiatrist who discovered that homosexuality is not an illness has also discovered that pedophilia is not...

    I doubt that there is a consensus regarding paedophilia not being an illness, but even if it were true, it does not change anything. For a self-labelled philosopher JP, you fail repeatedly at using logic.

    Here's the problem. When we mention paedophilia, there is an implied assumption that we are talking about adults having sex with kids. If you want to play around with words and claim that paedophilia is merely the thought of wanting to have sex with kids, then it's completely irrelevant.

    Feeling attracted to a kid is not, literally speaking, immoral. Just like being attracted to someone else when you are in a relationship is not immoral. How could it be so when these are impulsed feelings we cannot control? What we CAN control however are our actions, and that's where paedophilia parts with homosexuality.

    Pedophilia can be loving and benign according to scientists.

    Who cares? Do you think it's fine? No. Do I? No. Why? Because it implies fucking kids for fuck sake. No matter what they pretend, kids cannot make the sound judgement of having sex with an adult. It's insane!

    Of course it's not all black or white either... if a 19 yo wants to have sex with a 17 yo who consents, then it's a different story, but seriously, do we really need to go into such details? The point is that paedophilia is generally use to talk about adults forcing kids to have sex with them. Homosexuality, as a sexual orientation, does not imply forcing anybody to do anything. Can't you concede that?

    Male homosexuals tend to contract and spread many serious diseases, besides suffering from mental illnesses.

    Again, who cares?

    What if there was some disease suddenly appearing that can be transmitted only from a woman to a man, would that make man-to-man sex suddenly immoral? Of course not!

    Your logic fails. The fact that more homosexuals contracted diseases is explained by so many different factors, including but not limited to the fact that they had to hide their sexuality for so long. Plus, regarding AIDS, it's a well known facts that the kind of activities males perform together is more prone to tears and... well seriously, do I need to give you an anatomy lesson?

    Homosexuals are just attracted to different people. That's it.

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  18. Hugo, your biggest problem is your failure to distinguish between science and myth.

    Science is the body of knowledge acquired through precise, repeatable laboratory experiments. Myths are stories people make up to explain stuff they don't understand.

    Evolution is the atheist creation myth.


    My irony meter just broke; I will have to a get a new one before I can proceed.

    Seriously JP, what part of BIOLOGY don't you understand? Evolution is no conspiracy theory, it's just part of our understanding of the world. Both theists and atheists scientists work together since religion should not impact the way research is conducted.

    What do you think of the NCSE for example?

    WHAT IS NCSE'S RELIGIOUS POSITION?
    None. The National Center for Science Education is not affiliated with any religious organization or belief. We and our members enthusiastically support the right of every individual to hold, practice, and advocate their beliefs, religious or non-religious. Our members range from devout practitioners of several religions to atheists, with many shades of belief in between. What unites them is a conviction that science and the scientific method, and not any particular religious belief, should determine science curriculum.

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  19. "I think I would first ask them why they are becoming a BT and try to make sure it wasn't a brainwashing/kiruver thing, but other than that, it's their decision."

    ..but I seriously doubt your husband would be cool with it.

    According to his blog, he seems a lot more militant (and intolerant) than you.

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  20. I took 12 credits of college biology. I read, on-line, a debate about evolution between Gerald Schroeder (a religious Jew and MIT physics Ph.D.)and one of his opponents. I could not understand the technical arguments that either Dr. Schroeder or his opponent was offering.

    I wonder how many people who claim to believe that life began due to evolution really understand what that means, or are just expressing faith in the scientists, and therefore are believers in sciencism.

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  21. By the way, a person can be a hippie and a Orthodox Jew. There is a whole scene known as Habakkuk (standing for Habad, Breslov, Carlebach and Kook)

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  22. This is just semantics. I could also claim that Judaism is not religion - it's history. I could claim that just like George Washington and the Constitution are history, so are Moses and the Torah.

    Semantics?

    Again, what part of evolution don't you understand?

    There is no conspiracy, it's just a scientific field like all the others...

    Why do you ignore what NCSE has to offer for example? They explicitly say that they are not associated with any religious position. They simply care for the teaching of good science in school and, unfortunately, evolution is the scientific field which is the most badly taught because of conflicts with pre-conceived religious ideas...

    Anyway, I think your problem is that since birth you have been indoctrinated in certain beliefs by your parents, teachers and mass media. You literally cannot imagine that so much of what you have been taught is false. Therefore there's no point in discussing it with you.

    Irony meters broke again...

    You know almost nothing about me. How could you make such a broad statement?

    Plus, my parents were and are still religious so that's one thing you got wrong obviously...

    More importantly though, I love to be corrected. I always adjust my views when proven wrong, and I am a skeptical first and foremost, which means that I don't accept things easily. I prefer to say 'I am not sure about that' then say 'I believe this, therefore I reject that'.

    You are the one who censors comments on your blog JP, you are the one who denies science, so it's time for you to look in the mirror a bit more perhaps.

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  23. jbirdme:
    I took 12 credits of college biology. I read, on-line, a debate about evolution between Gerald Schroeder (a religious Jew and MIT physics Ph.D.)and one of his opponents. I could not understand the technical arguments that either Dr. Schroeder or his opponent was offering.

    I wonder how many people who claim to believe that life began due to evolution really understand what that means, or are just expressing faith in the scientists, and therefore are believers in sciencism.


    So you read a debate, did not understand it, and confuses evolution with abiogenesis, but you claim that others have 'faith' in scientists?

    I already posted a link to the NCSE on this blog. You might find that interesting.

    Take care.

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  24. Hugo, imagine approaching some average person on the street in Pakistan and trying to explain to him that Mohammed was actually a fraud and that Americans and Jews are not really evil. It's simply impossible. There is no way that he can grasp that everything he has been taught since birth by everyone he respects is false. I understand that. I don't even blame you.

    Abandoning however doesn't have that excuse.


    There is a big difference between me and some brain-washed tribal person living in Pakistan: I am educated.

    I know how to assess arguments, I know how to read and I know how to get more information.

    Again, you are the one who denies evolution, a well established scientific theory.

    If there is ONE thing I would stick to, it's that one point.

    So until then, nothing else to talk about. You deny reality. Period.

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  25. AE, I am just curious - how much time do you spend on this blog and thinking about how much you dislike Judaism? For someone who says she washed her hands of Judaism, it seems to dominate your life, doesn't it?

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  26. jbirdme, life did not "begin due to evolution". The moment you say that it's clear you are not familiar with the subject. Evolution is the study of how life changes over time. It does not address the question of how life began. That is a related but separate subject.

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  27. @JP

    First, what I mean by brainwashing is simply that Pakistani don't have access to the same information/education than us.

    YOU, JP, are the one without excuses for rejecting a well-established scientific theory. You reject the reality that BIOLOGY studies. You rejects facts such as common descent because some of your beliefs contradict this reality.

    Finally, this is hilarious:
    You think anyone with darker skin is an idiot?

    Ya, that's why I am dating an Indian girl. I like them brown and stupid!

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  28. " but other than that, it's their decision"

    AE, would you say this about ANY religion? Or cult?

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  29. jbirdme, not all that much time, if you look at the blog sidebar you'll see I only have about 35 posts this whole year, and if you look through them there are probably more related to my veggie garden than Judaism. :) I've been spending a bit more time than usual on this blog lately, but that's cause I decided to write out my whole life story here (I wrote all 6 of those posts on the same day btw, I just set them to release slowly over time).

    Ksil- I would say that about any religion, religious beliefs are a personal decision. Now if they are 10 years old and someone is trying to recruit them into a church that's one thing, but if they are 13, 14, 15, etc. and start getting into religion, that's their decision. I may try to reason with them a bit, but ultimately it's their life to live the way they want to.

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  30. Nor do you have access to the same information/education they do.

    ...

    I am merely pointing out that trying to convince someone such as yourself that evolution is a fraud is no different than trying to convince a Pakistani, Iranian or Saudi that the Koran is a fraud. The indoctrination is so strong that it's pointless to discuss it. And plenty of those people are just as smart and as educated, at least in their own way, as you are.

    Noooooo, you are wrong. Pakistan is not a free country where people can have access to all the information they want; nor is it a place where everybody have the same quality of education, or is taught the same techniques when it comes to science.

    Yes, most of the educated people over there are just like us. I actually know a few from Pakistan, do you? Well guess what, educated people who understand how science works, in Pakistan, also accept evolution! So you are, again, the one who is in the dark, on purpose.

    Moreover, you are also wrong concerning changing me mind.

    If you were to explain to me why evolution cannot possibly have happened, why it is not happening now, and provide explanations and evidence for another set of explanations, I WOULD BELIEVE IT.

    But can you? NO! Because evolution is as good to explain the complexity of life as gravity is when it comes to explain movement of planets. They are both solid scientific theories. They are both based on facts and have the same predicting power.

    So, perhaps I could ask you again JP. What part of biology don't you understand? What part of the evolutionary process don't you get? What part is so complicated for you to understand that you prefer label it as a fairy tale?

    You are the one who quoted NewScientist when we "discussed" on your blog; you should go read their BIOLOGY section. You might learn a thing or two...

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  31. JP

    trying to convince someone such as yourself that evolution is *not* a fraud is no different than trying to convince a Pakistani, Iranian or Saudi that the Koran is a fraud. The indoctrination is so strong that it's pointless to discuss it. And plenty of those people are just as smart and as educated, at least in their own way, as you are.

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  32. JP,

    "There is no way that he can grasp that everything he has been taught since birth by everyone he respects is false. I understand that."

    Do you really understand that? What about Orthodox Jews?

    (I guess that is different in your mind.)

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  33. Well guess what, educated people who understand the Koran, in the US, also accept Islam! There are plenty of American Muslim converts.

    What a bad argument once again. Lots of people understand the Koran, the Bible, the Torah and so on, but still reject them as evidence that a god exists, or more commonly, that the particular god described in the book exists.

    Can you really say the same for the Theory of Evolution? Of course not! There might be a few exceptions out there; a few people that understand all the evidence and explanations encapsulated by the theory, but I have yet to see one, and you JP are certainly not one of them according to your own blog.

    I would go even farther though, because it's all irrelevant in reality. The truth of any religion has nothing to do with the truth of evolution; both could be right or both could be wrong. The difference with evolution though is that it's a body of evidence put together in a scientific theory. The theory adjusts its views, ideas, hypothesis and conclusions based on the facts that are collected over time. No later than this morning did I read something about how Archaeopteryx, a species at the border between dinosaurs and bird, now falls more on the dinosaur side then on the bird side, following the discovery of some similar fossils classified as dinosaurs. Science adjusts its views.

    But you see here's the difference Abandoned, I was indoctrinated to believe in evolution. I went New York public high school in the 1970's. However nevertheless, I chose to reject it. Therefore my point of view has more validity than someone like Hugo who probably cannot imaging that what he's always been taught is wrong.

    Indoctrinated to believe in evolution? No, it's called science class, and that's how it's supposed to be done. Debates are not to be done at the high school level; they take place in the academic arena, between qualified professionals in their respected field. Let people with PHDs in biology-related fields discuss the details, and then they will let you know what should be taught to kids in high school. It's not indoctrination; it's just the simple way to get students to learn about what we know, for sure, according to scientific advancement.

    So what about imagining that what I always been taught is wrong? What a joke! Didn't you read what I said about my religious upbringing? What part of that don't you understand? I chose to reject religion even if everybody around me thought it was true. Isn't that the perfect example of something I used to believe and rejected? But does it really matter anyway? No! Because the truth of what we believe does not depend on our pre-conceived ideas about it. The truth does not fear inspection. The truth will never be found false when assessed over and over. That's why the scientific method yields what is as close as possible to truth, without ever pretending to be 100% correct, because the scientific method is self-correcting, but not dogmatic. Again, what a terrible argument you made.

    ***

    AE, again, sorry to feed the spineless troll on your own blog but since he censors comment on his and there are more people reading here anyway, I think it's worth it... and it's fun ;)

    ReplyDelete
  34. Your choice to call your religious beliefs "science" and everyone else's baseless nonsense is pure chauvanism, again perhaps excusable because of your narrow minded upbringing however still not based on a scintilla of logic.

    Religious beliefs and scientific knowledge are two different things, and everybody has some beliefs that derive from the 2 categories, some more in one than the other. My own personal religious beliefs are virtually non-existent but I will not pretend they are completely non-existent, it is however completely irrelevant to the points I am making here.

    The important point I am insisting on is that you are denying scientific advancement done by humankind for several decades. It has nothing to do with your religion; it has all to do with your own perception of reality. You deny the neutral, agenda-free, science of biology.

    I am not even attacking your Judaism; I am not even saying that 'everyone else is wrong' or anything close to this. You are actually the one who is foolish enough to make claims like this. You are the one is arrogant enough to think that is simple life philosophy is all there is, that he has all the questions answered and even pretend to know more about biology than anybody else:

    As you're probably aware, but will not or cannot accept, I have completely refuted your creation myth in this post.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-science-hijacked-by-atheism.html


    What a joke! Yes I had read your post as I mentioned before. Your old article shows that you understand very little of the evidence behind the Theory of Evolution and pretend that your own little interpretation is better. I am the one who went to read your rambling and then you call me narrow minded?

    You don't even know what I think, what I believe or how I live. I pointed out to you that I am going out with a "brown" person after you called me a bigot. I told you I rejected some of my previous beliefs because I constantly adjust my views when proven wrong, and so on. You simply assert things without any support.

    Again, you are a spineless troll JP. You post link instead of discussing, you censor comments on your blog, you attack other people who don't think like you, you offer simple explanations to complex issues and you clearly have some mental issues due to a troubled past. How could we expect to get anything useful from someone like you, when you deny basic science on top of all that?

    Start by acknowledging the reality you live; then you might be able to offer some valuable opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  35. (sorry, it might be a double-post, but I did not see it appear here)

    ***
    Your choice to call your religious beliefs "science" and everyone else's baseless nonsense is pure chauvanism, again perhaps excusable because of your narrow minded upbringing however still not based on a scintilla of logic.

    Religious beliefs and scientific knowledge are two different things, and everybody has some beliefs that derive from the 2 categories, some more in one than the other. My own personal religious beliefs are virtually non-existent but I will not pretend they are completely non-existent, it is however completely irrelevant to the points I am making here.

    The important point I am insisting on is that you are denying scientific advancement done by humankind for several decades. It has nothing to do with your religion; it has all to do with your own perception of reality. You deny the neutral, agenda-free, science of biology.

    I am not even attacking your Judaism; I am not even saying that 'everyone else is wrong' or anything close to this. You are actually the one who is foolish enough to make claims like this. You are the one is arrogant enough to think that is simple life philosophy is all there is, that he has all the questions answered and even pretend to know more about biology than anybody else:

    As you're probably aware, but will not or cannot accept, I have completely refuted your creation myth in this post.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-science-hijacked-by-atheism.html


    What a joke! Yes I had read your post as I mentioned before. Your old article shows that you understand very little of the evidence behind the Theory of Evolution and pretend that your own little interpretation is better. I am the one who went to read your rambling and then you call me narrow minded?

    You don't even know what I think, what I believe or how I live. I pointed out to you that I am going out with a "brown" person after you called me a bigot. I told you I rejected some of my previous beliefs because I constantly adjust my views when proven wrong, and so on. You simply assert things without any support.

    Again, you are a spineless troll JP. You post link instead of discussing, you censor comments on your blog, you attack other people who don't think like you, you offer simple explanations to complex issues and you clearly have some mental issues due to a troubled past. How could we expect to get anything useful from someone like you, when you deny basic science on top of all that?

    Start by acknowledging the reality you live; then you might be able to offer some valuable opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Theory of relativity is based on science

    Santa claus, the tooth fairy and jesus are made up

    That makes sense to most rational people

    ReplyDelete
  37. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  38. (3rd try...)

    Your choice to call your religious beliefs "science" and everyone else's baseless nonsense is pure chauvanism, again perhaps excusable because of your narrow minded upbringing however still not based on a scintilla of logic.

    Religious beliefs and scientific knowledge are two different things, and everybody has some beliefs that derive from the 2 categories, some more in one than the other. My own personal religious beliefs are virtually non-existent but I will not pretend they are completely non-existent, it is however completely irrelevant to the points I am making here.

    The important point I am insisting on is that you are denying scientific advancement done by humankind for several decades. It has nothing to do with your religion; it has all to do with your own perception of reality. You deny the neutral, agenda-free, science of biology.

    I am not even attacking your Judaism; I am not even saying that 'everyone else is wrong' or anything close to this. You are actually the one who is foolish enough to make claims like this. You are the one is arrogant enough to think that is simple life philosophy is all there is, that he has all the questions answered and even pretend to know more about biology than anybody else:

    ReplyDelete
  39. (3rd try part 2...)

    As you're probably aware, but will not or cannot accept, I have completely refuted your creation myth in this post.

    What a joke! Yes I had read your post as I mentioned before. Your old article shows that you understand very little of the evidence behind the Theory of Evolution and pretend that your own little interpretation is better. I am the one who went to read your rambling and then you call me narrow minded?

    You don't even know what I think, what I believe or how I live. I pointed out to you that I am going out with a "brown" person after you called me a bigot. I told you I rejected some of my previous beliefs because I constantly adjust my views when proven wrong, and so on. You simply assert things without any support.

    Again, you are a spineless troll JP. You post link instead of discussing, you censor comments on your blog, you attack other people who don't think like you, you offer simple explanations to complex issues and you [auto-censor]. How could we expect to get anything useful from someone like you, when you deny basic science on top of all that?

    Start by acknowledging the reality you live; then you might be able to offer some valuable opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  40. "You deny the neutral, agenda-free, science of biology."

    Exactly who decided it's neutral and agenda free? The biologists? I think Judaism is neutral and agenda free. We're just living according to the obvious truth.

    And if you really believe in evolution, I would stay away from those dark people. You know Darwin predicted their eminent extinction.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2006/06/evolution-pseudoscience-of-genocide.html

    There's real neutral science.


    Good job JP; your comments confirm what I write about you. You don't understand how science works. You don't understand what biology teaches us. You don't understand how it applies when it comes to morality, or how it should not apply I should say.

    Yes by the way, Judaism, the STORY of Judaism, is neutral and agenda-free. It does not make it 100% accurate. Some of the facts it is based on are accurate for sure. The problem is parting facts from myth, and clearly you fail at this step; but yet you pretend to be better than most biology specialists when it comes to their field of expertise. Fascinating!

    ReplyDelete
  41. You claim to be better than rabbis are in their field of expertise. Without ever cracking open a Talmud, you know it's bogus.

    I can prove immediately and simply that atheists are liars:

    Atheists do not suggest replacing law enforcement with animal control.

    Atheists do not advocate global warming.

    As I explain here,

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/07/two-proofs-that-atheists-are-lying.html

    these ideas would be consistent with the beliefs of atheists, however atheists don't advocate them because they themselves cannot fully accept their own nonsensical beliefs.


    Again JP, thank you for proving my points.

    You know nothing about how I think and barely know anything about my beliefs; yet you claim to know more than myself and pretend to have pre-made answers to virtually anything, as if your links to your own blog could serve anything else but boosting your already inflated ego.

    As for Rabbis, no, you are wrong because I don't claim to know more than them, nor do I reject anything they have to say out of hand. The problem is that there are several points that need to be accepted, on faith, before we even begin to discuss ideas related to God in the context of Judaism. Perhaps I am wrong; I would be open to learn, but I have the feeling that it would fall pretty quickly into the same rhetoric Muslims or Christians use...

    To be clear, you are the one who lies about others by pretending you know what they think and believe and why. I asked you if you were willing to correct your own mistakes when you make some. I had to ask you at least 3 times before you said that you would, but you never did.

    You prefer to stick with your own personal interpretations of what others think. In other words, not only are you wrong concerning well established objective science, but you are also wrong when it comes to describing others' position. The worst part is that you refuse to correct this distorted view and refuse to even come close to discuss it. You prefer to act as the spineless troll that you are by posting unrelated link, pushing the same lies again and again and never writing more than a few provocative words.

    ReplyDelete
  42. JP wrote:
    How do you critique other religions pretending to know what they think and why?

    I don't!

    ...and as I said...

    You prefer to act as the spineless troll that you are by posting unrelated link, pushing the same lies again and again and never writing more than a few provocative words.

    ReplyDelete
  43. I've learned the first book of the talmud (gemarah brachot) and I can tell you it's a bunch of bullshit. Unless you really believe that if you burn up a cat and put it's ashes in your eyes and look in a mirror at midnight you'll suddenly see a bunch of demons. or if you put flour around your bed at night you'll see demon chicken prints in the morning. Sounds totally plausible...

    ReplyDelete
  44. I've learned the first book of the talmud (gemarah brachot) and I can tell you it's a bunch of bullshit. Unless you really believe that if you burn up a cat and put it's ashes in your eyes and look in a mirror at midnight you'll suddenly see a bunch of demons. or if you put flour around your bed at night you'll see demon chicken prints in the morning. Sounds totally plausible...

    Wow, sounds like quite a weird but perhaps interesting story; is there some lesson to be learned from it when not taken literally?

    ReplyDelete
  45. nope, there are just a bunch of rabbis seriously discussing how to deal with shadim (the jewish version of demons). They also warn about not going into abandoned warehouses, cause the shadim might collapse the building on your head. Good advice, but their reasoning makes me wonder how anyone can take what they say seriously. And if I recall correctly there was a story about a rabbi talking to his dead grandmother, or maybe a shade that was impersonating his dead grandmother,or something like that?

    No wonder they don't let women learn the talmud, they would be leaving in droves.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Jewish Pervert, you haven't "proved" God exists or atheists are liars. You've rehashed a bunch of Christian apologetics with Yiddish sauce, demonstrated a complete ignorance of philosophy, physics, biology, astronomy, geology, paleontology, archaeology and probably chemistry if we look closely enough.

    Whenever anyone dips a toe into your blog and tries to discuss the errors you shut him or her down. No refutation permitted. Nothing but sycophants.

    But you come here loudly proclaiming your aim of making AE's life miserable and acting like a turd in the punchbowl. Your hypocrisy is sickening.

    ReplyDelete
  47. To quote the wonderfully iconoclastic Tim Minchin in his ten minute Beat poem/animation Storm

    Storm to her credit despite my derision
    Keeps firing off clichés with startling precision
    Like a sniper using bollocks for ammunition

    “You’re so sure of your position
    But you’re just closed-minded
    I think you’ll find
    Your faith in Science and Tests
    Is just as blind
    As the faith of any fundamentalist”

    “Hm that’s a good point, let me think for a bit
    Oh wait, my mistake, it’s absolute bullshit.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.

    ReplyDelete
  48. @AE
    nope, there are just a bunch of rabbis seriously discussing how to deal with shadim (the jewish version of demons). They also...

    Thanks for the info! Isn't fascinating how religions vary a lot from each other yet often fall back to the same principles; it reminds me of other things that have common ancestors ;)

    ReplyDelete
  49. JP doesn't make my life miserable, no worried dan.

    JP- you point to 70 years of breeding to try to prove evolution doesn't work? You know evolution takes place over millions of years, right? :)

    ReplyDelete
  50. @JP

    "I don't!"

    You do. You insist that the Biblical God doesn't exist and evolution created us.


    You never stop being dishonest, do you?
    The phrase 'I don't' came after this:

    How do you critique other religions pretending to know what they think and why?

    Is this the same? No, not at all!

    You accused me of pretending to 'know what religions think and why' when I DON'T DO THIS.

    Yes I insist that the Biblical God, specifically the Christian version, doesn't exist, but I am not pretending to know better than anybody else what specialists have to say about such God; I merely listen to the claims and explain why I don't believe them, if asked. Nothing more!

    Note also that I do prefer to specify 'Christian' since this is the version I am most familiar with. But don't be jealous, I also reject your Judaic version, the Islamic version and the interesting but just as incredible Hindu stories my girlfriend told me.

    As far as 'evolution created us' goes, this is a terrible wording that only shows your own ignorance and bias toward a creation event. I don't believe we were 'created' in the way you express it so this sentence is void of any meaning. We evolved, just like any other living thing, and still continue to...

    ReplyDelete
  51. @JP - 2

    I've learned Darwin and I can tell you it's a bunch of bullshit.

    Attacking Darwin directly shows once more that you do not understand the evidence used to build the modern Theory of Evolution. You oversimplify ideas and facts in order to dismiss them.

    His entire premise is that since pigeon breeders can create different breeds of pigeons, therefore "natural selection" can create any species from any species.
    Of course that's pure nonsense.


    No, THAT is pure nonsense. 'any species from any species' contradicts evolution completely.
    You are attacking a simple strawman version of evolution that suits your denial attitude.

    Your following examples just show more lack of understanding of what we can learn from biology. Naming a few processes that did not show leaps in evolution big enough for you to accept that speciation occurs does not mean that speciation never occurs.

    What about ring species? Isn't that a perfect example of speciation?

    Also, what about several other ideas that fit well with evolutionary theory but would be hard to explain with anything else? What about the fact that we all share ATP as a molecule to carry energy? What about chromosome #2 on humans versus other primates? What about the fact that we all use the same amino acids when much more could be used? What about observing speciation with small organism in a relatively short period of time? And so on... None of these, by themselves, are evidence for the complex process of biological evolution, but the point is that it's this body of knowledge that allow us to conclude that humans, just like any other animal, share a recent common ancestor with close cousins like apes and a less recent common ancestor with mammals, etc...

    Do you need links? I feel you won't really care so I won't bother!

    ...or I could just have said what AE said "you point to 70 years of breeding to try to prove evolution doesn't work? You know evolution takes place over millions of years, right?"
    ;-)

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  52. "You insist that the Biblical God doesn't exist and evolution created us"

    makes A LOT more sense than some fairy tale about an invisible bearded man in the sky who wrote a book "A BOOK!!!" and told us to do the most absurd. things. ever. that you insist on! you make scientologists sound rational!

    "she had an unhappy childhood" - if only she owuld have followed blindly in her parents footsteps! lol

    "I believe God did it." i believe the tooth fairy did it. i believe zeus did it. you can believe whatever nonsense you want...you appear quite happy with your absurdities. enjoy!

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

    oy, if only you took your own advice....

    ReplyDelete
  53. "Judaism is the simplest and most plausible answer to life's basic questions."

    its comedy hour on the internet! HAHAHAHAHAH

    thanks for all those links - well-done

    ReplyDelete
  54. @JP

    Did you even read the article you posted? It supports evolution 100%...

    I had heard of 3 cases of ring species and it turns out that one of them is the one discussed in this article, so it's interesting to see that it does not fit the ring species model after all.

    That's how good science works; it adjusts its views based on facts.

    Now, it's your turn to consider the following JP, since clearly you clearly did NOT read the article...

    The significant taxonomic and geographical structure enables us to interpret the evolutionary history of these gulls based on mitochondrial genetic variation.
    [...]
    Our results show that the ring-species model does not adequately describe the evolution of the herring gull group because, contrary to the proposal of Mayr (1942), there is no overlap between the endpoints of a ring of interbreeding taxa.
    [...]
    Although Larus gulls do not currently fulfil the essential criteria of a ring species, this situation may be about to change: lesser black-backed gulls (L. fuscus graellsii ) are Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B (2004) expanding westwards and currently breed as far west as Greenland (Boertmann 1994).
    [...]
    Although our results do not support a speciation model involving only isolation by distance, the origin of reproductive barriers in the herring gull complex does provide important insights into the speciation process.
    [...]
    A case that closely approximates a true ring species is that of the Asian greenish warbler Phylloscopus trochiloides group (Irwin et al. 2001b). Ancestors of this complex spread from south of the Himalayas east and west around the Tibetan Plateau, north of which the ring closed between two taxa that are reproductively isolated[...]


    Thanks for playing though, and thanks a lot for the information, it was a good read!

    Looking forward for your admission that you were mistaken about evolution JP... but I won't hold my breath, because I think you have a lot more reading to do before you get to this point. What about visiting some museum of natural history? You could learn a lot and get to SEE the evidence instead of just reading about it. It's even more convincing I promise.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Oh ya, one more thing...

    Darwin made an extraordinary claim: microbes can spontaneously morph into people.

    The evidence is virtually nonexistent.

    http://www.iconsofevolution.com/


    Darwin NEVER made such claim and it contradicts evolutionary theory anyway. What a surprise, it shows that you don't understand evolution, once again...

    Icons of evolution? You mean Well's book? Really? I sent you a link to NCSE, you should go take a look to read about how dishonest this book was.

    http://ncse.com/creationism/analysis/icons-evolution

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  56. @JP

    *** 1 ***

    I said: "Darwin NEVER made such claim"

    JP replied: Sure he did.
    and quoted Darwin saying...
    "[...]probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form[...]"

    What I was replying to is this:
    Darwin made an extraordinary claim: microbes can spontaneously morph into people.

    Really, you see that as being the same thing? Can you be more dishonest?

    *** 2 ***

    I think Wells is more convincing than his critics. Buy the book.
    Wells answers critics here http://www.discovery.org/a/1180


    Of course you agree with Wells, but only because you share his conclusion. You simply don't care that he rejects only a tiny portion of what evolutionary theory states because he wants to make sure he can insert his god in the gaps... You don't care that he has to lie and distort information to support his views. You don't care that he offers no alternative to the "flaws" he sees except "Goddidit". Scientific laziness at its best! Vive le 'God of the gaps'!

    In any case, the article you linked to was written in 2002 while the article I linked to was written in 2008... Enough said.

    *** 3 ***

    Finally, and most importantly, you just completely avoided the fact that I exposed the article YOU posted as being supportive of the Theory of Evolution. It even supports the notion of ring species that you thought it was falsifying.

    Clearly you are incapable of admitting that you make mistakes... You completely lost this small "debate" on evolution JP. You have nothing to offer and understand very little of what you are trying to reject.

    Keep reading books by apologists who already agree with you, it's probably comforting. If you care about learning what real scientists have to say about evolution, I invite you once more to visit NewScientist's website... They quote serious journals like Science and Nature without being as technical. Oh but wait, you just don't care...

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  57. "Really, you see that as being the same thing?"

    Yes, it is. According to Darwin, all life, including humans, developed from microbes spontaneously, meaning without the involvement of God.

    "Of course you agree with Wells, but only because you share his conclusion."

    On the contrary, you reject Wells because he disagrees with what you've been taught by your parents and teachers; how could you not?

    ""Vive le 'God of the gaps'!"

    On the contrary, the evidence for evolution keeps shrinking, as we just mentioned regarding the Larus gulls, the classic example of a ring species.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species#Larus_gulls

    Vive le 'atheism of the gaps'!

    ReplyDelete
  58. Good job JP. You are perfect in your role of spineless troll!

    Any chance you will correct your mistakes before I address the nonsense you just wrote?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Oh well, got to go, so why not have fun a bit first...

    "Really, you see that as being the same thing?"

    Yes, it is. According to Darwin, all life, including humans, developed from microbes spontaneously, meaning without the involvement of God.


    How convenient, you leave out the actual quote! Let me put it back here to expose your dishonesty once more...

    JP said: Darwin made an extraordinary claim: microbes can spontaneously morph into people.

    Darwin actually wrote: ...probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form...

    One implies a very long time while the other uses the word spontaneously. Hint: spontaneously does NOT mean 'without the involvement of God'.

    Do you stand by your words or do you wish to correct your mistake?

    ***

    On the contrary, you reject Wells because he disagrees with what you've been taught by your parents and teachers; how could you not?

    Parents and teachers... You really like that one don't you? What a joke. I read the link you posted concerning Wells, and I read the critics on NCSE. Did you do that? Probably not... I reject Well's points because of the points themselves. I don't even care about his conclusions because what he states his wrong as exposed by NCSE and so many other professionals in his field. You stick with him because you like his conclusion. It's completely different!

    ***

    On the contrary, the evidence for evolution keeps shrinking, as we just mentioned regarding the Larus gulls, the classic example of a ring species.

    Can you read?

    The Larus gulls are a great exemple of speciation and how evolutionary theory is discussed about biologists. You need to ignore such cases to stick with your anti-science view!

    ***

    Vive le 'atheism of the gaps'!

    Thanks for showing how retarded you are, oh wait, perhaps you were trying to be funny? It's hard to tell when you show suck lack of intelligence in everything else you write...

    ReplyDelete
  60. Almost every bogus proof that Darwin used in Origin has been discredited - embryology, homologies, vestigial organs, all torn to shreds. In the mean time, the fossil evidence has become even more difficult for evolutionists. Sudden change, not gradual evolution, is always the rule. So new excuses have to made up such as punctuated equilibrium and new proofs fabricated, such as junk DNA or ring species, until they too will fall under further scrutiny.

    Watching atheists twist and turn trying to defend their precious evolution makes Christian theologians presenting proofs of the trinity sound like the ultimate in rationalism by comparison.

    And by the way that is precisely the meaning of Darwin's comment: microbes spontaneously morphed into people.

    Honestly, you sound like a very impaired person who knows neither English, science nor religion but thinks he does. Abandoning sounds like an over-sexed young woman who basically, for some unrevealed reason, wants to give her parents a giant "f--- you".

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  61. wow what a great story i wish u many more and happy years

    ReplyDelete

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