Monday, August 22, 2011

How I went OTD and left the Jewish community for good: Part 3

Read Part 1, Part 2, Part 4, Part 5 and Part 6

In college for the first two years I commuted back and forth to Hunter, 4 hours on a train every day. It was actually great for studying- I got so much work done on the train (and later by reading at home when I was stuck there for shabbas) that I ended up graduating summa cum laude. My level of observance at this time was at a level it had been stuck at for years. I didn't believe in orthodox judaism (but still believed in god...kinda), I didn't keep shabbas at all, I ate non-kosher vegetarian food and cheeses, ate fish (but not shellfish) out, but I still did not eat non-kosher meat. I bought a secret pair of jeans and every morning I would leave my house wearing a long skirt with the jeans rolled up underneath, and on the walk to the train station would whip my skirt off when no one was around and stuff it in my bag, and roll down my pants, and go to school.

While in college I also started 'experimenting' with other forms of judaism. The thought occurred to me that perhaps I hated judaism because of my parents/HS/whatever, but that other sects would be less horrible. I became very involved in Hillel and my college's jewish (non frum for the most part) community, and was on their programming committee for years where I organized many fun (IMO) jewish events like jewish movie viewings and a hillel open mike night with brilliant people performing various things every week for a year. I even was co-VP of Hillel for a semester. I went to chabad lunch and learns every other week and had long discussions with other hillel folks about whether the documentary hypothesis might be true and how we could prove it wrong, the various beliefs and practices of people in various sects of judaism, life in general. One of those folks was Malkie S., the woman who started the organization Footsteps, an organization for OTDers which she was just starting while we were in college together. She later tried to get me to join in my senior year, but I never made it to a meeting.

Meanwhile I went on birthrite Israel with hillel during winter break of my freshman year and meditated with hippie jews on the top of mountains in sefat. I went to my first reconstructionist shabbas services when they told us we had a choice of which services to go to and had ones of all stripes. While I did enjoy the guitar and being able to understand what we were saying, it was very foreign and kinda offputting to me because it was similar and yet so different from what I had grown up with. On birthrite I also got really drunk for the first time on Ben Yehudah street at Mike's Place, and after the trip was over I paid a $50 to delay my ticket home and spent 2 weeks crashing with my friend who was doing a year at Bar Elon University near Tel Aviv, where I got my belly button pierced. I visited with my cousins in Beit El in the west bank. I went to shabbas dinner at my friend's cousins where they had a traditional friday night shabbas dinner, after which we sat around watching tv. My first exposure to "cultural jews."

Back at college I had many long conversations with the reform rabbi-in-training at hillel and some conservative friends. I started identifying as conservative and then as a cultural jew. I also started taking yoga which led to reading some buddhist philosophy, which I liked. Through some of my clases I learned more about christianity, which I knew almost nothing about at that point. I had long conversations with non-jewish people at work at my college (who were mostly Muslim and Hindu, with a couple of Christians and some other Jews) where we compared our religions and their various beliefs.

It was the first time I had non-jewish friends, and really talked to anyone of another religion in depth about what their religion believed. I went to one of the most diverse colleges in the country (#3 in the country) and being in NYC and working to help run freshman orientation, I met and talked to people from all backgrounds and from all over the world. It was heady times. I went through a bit of a culture shock when I first got there but after a childhood in which I never had a conversation with someone who wasn't jewish, I loved all the different kinds of people I was meeting. I had to struggle to catch up with things my professors took for granted, like that we knew what the protestant reformation was (I didn't, and wikipedia wasn't really around yet). I also had to train myself to speak straight english instead of yinglish, as I soon realized once arriving in college that a lot of the words I used in regular speech were actually a foreign language.

I was still dating my ex fiance (we went out for 4 years- from fall of my senior year of high school until fall of my senior year of college). For around a year and a half after my parents found out about our plans to spend a weekend away (around 6 months after we started dating) there was a family stalemate, during which I refused to stop dating him, and he was not welcome in the house. After 9/11 happened during my sophomore year in college when I was 19, my parents decided they would be cool with him again cause "life is short." He was invited over to the house again for Thanksgiving 2001. My dad and him even eventually came to be pretty close.

The summer after my sophomore year my ex's own parents decided to move to another part of the country and since he was making a decent wage at that time, he decided he would stay in the area and not move with the rest of his family. He got an apartment about 3 blocks away from my parent's house. As you could imagine this was AWESOME for me since I had a place literally 3 blocks away where I could go violate shabbas all I wanted, with no parents around! Me and several other OTDers in town started hanging out at his place friday night after dinner and shabbas day after lunch, watching cartoons, and he started coming to my house for almost every shabbas meal. I was 20 at the time.

That summer something else happened- my school started opening up a very limited number of dorm rooms, after they were closed for renovations for several years. The dorms had very limited space-only 600 rooms at a school with 16,000 undergrads- so they were mostly for athletes, honors students in a new program, those on exchange programs, with a few "emergency rooms" for students who had major issues at homes. I desperately wanted to move there. I went to the vice president of the school and asked to be let into one of the emergency rooms on the basis of that I was spending 4 hours every day commuting, and that I was having problems at home. I explained the massive fights my parents and I were having over religion and how I was living a double life. I was also an honors student in the old honors program (and they were letting honors students from the new program in so why not me?). I told her every reason I could think of and every argument to get in. I got a room.

The next step was convincing my parents. The dorm rooms were incredibly cheap - around $250 a month (no meal plan) to stay in the Gramercy Park area of Manhattan (the dorms are on 25th street and 1st ave in Manhattan). My parents were paying around $250 a month for all the NJ transit train, path train and subway fees to get me to school each month. I worked out all the numbers and proved to my parents that it would be cheaper to let me dorm than to make me commute.

I think the deciding factor was my ex moving 3 blocks away from my parents- my parents wanted me to go off to the dorm so we wouldn't be "tempted into sex" in his apartment or something (which they probably convinced themselves we weren't already having- we had lost our virginity to each other a couple of months before my 18th birthday). My dad definitely mentioned something about how he "knew I wasn't going to be sleeping around with a bunch of guys at my dorm cause your boyfriend is right here with us." Lovely, dad.

We worked out a deal where my parents would pay for my tuition + dorm and I would pay for everything else -food, clothes, the phone line and DSL internet connection my senior year- out of the three jobs I was working while in college. I was then working as a paid research assistant, a peer adviser and later admin in the school's student center, and an occasional statistics tutor. I also promised (in writing on another one of those damn contracts my dad was always making up) to come home every single shabbas and yuntif (holiday) to stay with my parents, or they would stop paying my tuition and dorm fees immediately.

I still hadn't escaped completely, and at the time I was working 30+ hours a week and taking 5 classes a semester, living in a room that was 8 feet by 12 feet while sharing a bathroom and kitchen with 60 filthy people on my floor, but I was on my own for almost 6 days of the week, and it was completely glorious and I loved every second. I wore pants every day but Friday when I went to my parent's house after school was over. I ate whatever I wanted- although still vegetarian non-kosher food for a while, so I rarely ate meat except on weekends. I ate a lot of tuna fish and bean burritos from taco bell ($1.06 and very filling!).

Every Friday I would take the 2 hour train home, spend as much of shabbas as possible at my ex's house, and every Saturday night my ex or my dad would drive me back into the city. That moment when you are on the George Washington Bridge and first see all the huge lights and buildings of NYC- that was always the greatest moment every week, I would sigh a huge sigh of relief for being FREE again, at least for a week.

Meanwhile over these years I had learned a very important lesson- as long as I still depended on my parents for money, they would always be able to control my religious life. They were able to force me to come home every single weekend to celebrate shabbas (which was very much against my will), which I hadn't kept in like 6 years, but they could do it because I needed their money. I was still forced to miss class to come home for holidays. As long as I needed their money I would have to live this double life, pretending to be nominally religious so I wouldn't piss them off so much that they would cut off my college tuition. So my new goal was financial independence.

Fortunately something even more amazing happened at the end of my freshman year- I discovered sociology. Not only that, I discovered the possibility of becoming a sociology professor.

To be continued...


  1. You know, until I met you, I never heard it called Yuntif. Such strange JDub (from SY slang- Derogatory term for Ashkenaz.)words you guys come up with. I am kind of itching to correct you and say YOM TOOOOVVVVVVVV!

  2. yom tov is hebrew, yuntiff is yiddish/yinglish. :) I've found in my experience that convservative/reform jews tend to use the hebrew version of words, while orthodox jews tend to use a lot more yiddish/yinglish (Shabbat vs. shabbas, yom tov vs. yuntiff etc.)

  3. My mom always said yuntiff - she actually knew more Yiddish than Hebrew because (more history ahead) once upon a time, Yiddish is what the Jewish socialists spoke, since Hebrew was for the Zionists.

    Anyway, reading this over, the thing that strikes me is how you hated coming home for Shabbos and holidays. Is it fair to say that you associated it with conflict with your family? It really seems to be so different from most of the Jews I know, who will look forward to Shabbat dinner with family (or a Chabad house or Jewish org if away at school) and holidays at home, even if they aren't otherwise observant.

  4. "I still hadn't escaped completely"

    Other than sex, you don't seem to give any reason for wanted to escape. Frankly, disgusting.

  5. Reading comprehension was never your strong suit, was it JP?

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  7. JRKmommy- I think it was a combo of the constant conflict in my family making it very unpleasant, and just the fact that I was being FORCED to go home every weekend. I wanted to be out spreading my wings, exploring the world, doing normal college things on weekends, not hanging with my parents and spending every weekend doing religious stuff I had no interest in.

    I think with people like me (after just finishing a book about dog training as a metaphor for classroom management and undergrad motivation, I would say I am definitely the alpha dog type) you can't force us to do things until we start believing in it, you have to convince us it's the right thing/personally beneficial to do in order to get us to do something, and my parents were much more of the forcing type than the convincing type.

    To quote Princess Leah, "the more you tighten your grip, the more galaxies will slip through your fingers." And as I told my dad at the time in fact- if the only thing keeping me religious is the fact that my parents were financially blackmailing me to be religious, what do you think will happen when I don't need their money anymore? By forcing me to come home every shabbas in order to get college tuitoin, they actually did the exact opposite of what they intended- instead of keeping me connected to the religion, it made me hate the religion even more.

  8. Bret, JP isn't worth it. He's obviously got serious psychological problems, and if you read his blog, they predated his becoming Jewish. The problem is, in many segments of the Orthodox community those who become Orthodox Jews will be seen as success stories, and their psychological problems will be ignored.

    While most people who become Orthodox Jews don't have such problems, there's a disproportionate number who do. Many people have problems with their lives and turn to Judaism to solve them, but just end up being Jews with the same psychological problems.

    In JP's case, unfortunately, his psychological problems verge on the psychopathic.

  9. But kudos to you for having a gut reaction to protect your love.

  10. Many people have problems with their lives and turn to Judaism to solve them, but just end up being Jews with the same psychological problems.

    Come to think of it, this can be said of many religious awakenings, not just Jewish ones.

  11. AE, the fact that you had to be so careful to hide your pants-wearing is telling. It seems like your parents viewed a girl wearing pants almost in the same category as eating treif, as their attitude forced you to hide both equally. That speaks to a lack of perspective on their part and a lack of understanding the distinction between halacha and minhag.

  12. AE--

    If you don't mind me asking, do your parents believe in evolution?

    Also I think people need to stop the garbage, especially JP. Orthodoxy sucks, plain and simple. I had a it a lot worse than AE; my family was haredi but I went to an MO school. While my friends went to movies at night, I couldn't leave the house past 6PM. But I am not telling AE she didn't suffer at all---because each person's circumstances are different. It's not about sex, it's about being able to live your life at YOUR OWN moderation.

  13. Orthodoxy sucks, plain and simple.

    That's a rather broad statement. Yes, Orthodoxy sucked for you. It sucked for AE. But it doesn't suck for everyone, and there's a huge variety within Orthodoxy. Some find it very fulfilling and not oppressive at all.

    I believe in a pluralistic view of Judaism and feel that each person should have the right choose in what way they want to live their lives, whether it be another stream of Judaism or no Judaism at all.

    But there's nothing wrong with someone happily and freely choosing to be Orthodox. By blanketly stating that "Orthodoxy sucks" you're guilty of the same close-mindedness you see in Orthodoxy.

  14. Also I think people need to stop the garbage, especially JP. Orthodoxy sucks, plain and simple.

    JP's not representative of Orthodoxy or of Judaism at all. He's only representative of severe emotional instability.

  15. I'm actually not sure if my parents believe in evolution or not, but if I had to guess i would lean towards not.

    JP- only you could take a story in which I MOVE AWAY from where my boyfriend lived in order to get away from the religion, to mean that I left for sex.

  16. It's Jews like him that made people think, "Hey, Hitler might have a point..."

    That's an extremely disturbing thing to write and not even remotely acceptable, no matter who JP is. It's offensive to ANY Jew to read something like that. If I didn't know better (I hope) because of all the descriptions of you AE has written on her blog, I'd categorize that comment as anti-semitic. Please think again before you write stuff like that. You want to call JP names, fine. He's a sick and rather scary individual. But to invoke Hitler's final solution as acceptable for anyone, even half in jest to make a point is very disturbing.

  17. So is Ricky Gervais an anti-Semite for saying that he thought Schindler's List was a porno because of the review that said you should have a box of tissues?
    Stop being so sensitive.

  18. feac9660,

    You really don't see the difference between the 2 examples?

  19. They're both not anti-Semitic. Insensitive? Possibly, I lean yes. But not anti-Semitic. That word is thrown around too many times.

  20. "Please think again before you write stuff like that. You want to call JP names, fine. He's a sick and rather scary individual. But to invoke Hitler's final solution as acceptable for anyone, even half in jest to make a point is very disturbing."

    Another thing to remember is that by Hitler's reckoning, JP is an Aryan, not a Jew. The Jewish people on the other hand, at least officially, consider converts to be the same as born Jews. This is a very charitable thing to do with respect to JP, as he seems to know less about some principles of Jewish learning than even me, a Hebrew School dropout, yet he claims to be an Orthodox rabbi, or at least have studied for several years in an ultra-Orthodox religious school.

    I have to agree with Philo, though. That comment went too far.

  21. Let me be clear. I don't consider Bret to be anti-semitic. I've been reading AE's blog for too many years to think anything like that. And JP is such a creep and pervert that anyone can be driven to respond in unfortunate ways, especially when one's spouse is being attached.

    But I think Bret chose his comment very poorly.

  22. when one's spouse is being attached.


  23. I also think it goes too far to tell someone who is psychologically unstable to go and commit suicide. That's a lack of basic humanity in my view.

  24. Perhaps Bret himself is not consciously an antisemite, but it might be that he stems from a culture where antisemitic comments like this one are widespread, so he is not really aware of what he is saying.

  25. Lisel--

    Google "Jewish Philosopher Tova Schrieber" before you criticize anyone for saying anything about JP.

  26. Sure, JP IMHO commits huge chillul Hashem (basically, reflecting badly on Judaism), but Bret's Hitler comment was also disgusting.

    No, it's never ok to leap to the conclusion that genocide against an entire group is justified, I don't care how bad any one individual experience is.

  27. The word anti-Semitism is losing it's horrific historic nature due its overuse. To some, anyone who thinks Andorra might be more moral than Israel is an anti-Semite. Please reserve the word for real Jew-haters.

  28. Feac9660, you're bringing in irrelevant points. No one is defending JP. Nor are they discussing whether "anti-semitic" is overused. I happen to think it is as well. We're just discussing whether Bret's comment was unintentionally anti-semitic sounding.

  29. JRKMommy,

    I don't think Bret was saying that genocide was justified, I think he was using a poor choice of words to say that JP is the kind of Jew who made some people think it was justified. Still unacceptable, but not the same.

  30. But that is overusing it! Anti-Semitic has everything to do with intent.

    Bret came from a Catholic family and married a Jew. Let's remember that.

  31. "In JP's case, unfortunately, his psychological problems verge on the psychopathic."

    If we lived a few centuries ago you would have claimed demons possessed me.

    "Certainly it is the time for me to show that demons dwell in the synagogue, not only in the place itself but also in the souls of the Jews."

    SAINT CHRYSOSTOM: Archbishop of Constantinople 
    Adversus Judaeos Homily i vi:6

    This is called ad hominen and is a logical fallacy.

    "JP- only you could take a story in which I MOVE AWAY from where my boyfriend lived in order to get away from the religion, to mean that I left for sex."

    So far you don't seem to have any other motive to "escape" Judaism, other than a need for premarital sex.

  32. I've certainly never held back from saying what I think about JP.

    That has nothing to do with why I called Bret's Hitler comment disgusting. Perhaps Bret could imagine seeing his wife and future children killed, regardless of how they identified or what they believed, by people who felt justified by what some other Jew had done.

    For that matter, look at Americans who have been killed, regardless of their own views, because someone had a beef with American policy, or look at any sort of racial killings.

    I don't know Bret so I'm not saying that he's racist or anti-semitic, but I am saying that the comment casually supports an assumption that underlies genocides.

  33. JP---what is so bad about leaving a secluded environment like Orthdoxy to find some who you truly love and will be happy with?

    Why be Orthodox if you will be unhappy?

  34. Until proven otherwise to who, you? Guess what, you don't get to determine reality. Reality exists outside of your twisted determination of it.

    And yes, it's cocks like you who make me hate judaism.

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  37. I believe in God. I just don't live in an organized community and don't hate others who don't think like me. Am I going to burn forever?

  38. "Why be Orthodox if you will be unhappy?"

    Because if you leave, you'll burn in hell forever.

    If you read the Torah, there is no fine print that says "you know, if you don't really enjoy this stuff, fine, just drop it".

    "Until proven otherwise to who, you? Guess what, you don't get to determine reality."

    I guess that's my answer. Abandoning wants cocks, Abandoning dumps Judaism. At least be honest enough to admit that you're a selfish, shallow slime ball.

  39. I've got a post about Jewish heretics and hell.

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  41. JP, I am an observant (though only partially believing) Jew. Yet, having to spend anytime in "heaven" with people like you would make it hell. I'd rather burn in hell with the thinking atheists.

  42. Not that I believe in a literal heaven or hell

  43. Hear hear Philo.

    Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin or JP? It's a no brainer.

  44. Yes, it's all about my 13 inch German cock (though like most statistics out of Germany, I'm sure that number has been inflated, if not completely fabricated).

  45. [I think I like this Jewish Philosopher guy... I've been trying to convince people for years that it's all about my schlong, and this guy is finally validating me... thank you, internet...]

  46. I saw JP on other blogs, but I stand by my word that it is immoral to tell a psychologically unstable person to commit suicide.

    Even if he did it, that would not make it moral (since we see all the time that he does lots of immoral things).

    By the way: a certain time back, they wrote to his rabbi in order to keep him away from the Internet. It seemed to have helped for some time. What happened now? Did he change Rabbi and get a heter for Internet?

  47. I was against telling his rabbi and employer. You don't get into people's personal lives. But the argument for doing so was compelling nonetheless.

  48. JP, in honor of the ego boost, if I have a baby boy, I promise to not circumcise him and we'll name the foreskin "The Jewish Philosopher."

    Now seriously go kill yourself, you have a legacy now. What more do I have to do to accommodate you offing yourself? Please hang yourself in your closet with a tie and for the love of YHVH, don't leave a fucking note, because no one gives a shit what you think.

    You are like a malignant cancer of the blog. You are a tumor of a human being, and I hope you remember to should jump off the next bridge you see. Just stop the car, get our, and jump in head first.

  49. Lisel, if JP doesn't want people telling him to kill himself, he should stop telling atheists to kill themselves (which he does on a regular basis). Many of whom may have psychological issues as a result of their religious experience. Turnabout is fair play.

  50. Bret you're breaking the #1 rule of the internets: Don't feed the troll :)

  51. JP does not follow any living rabbi. In a world in which any publications comes with numerous rabbinic endorsements and people refer anything and everything to rabbinic authorities and even prominant rabbis consult with greater authorities and "gedolim", he has decided that he has no need for such guidance.

  52. And I think dismissing him as psychologically unstable is a cop out. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's just a gigantic asshole who enjoys fucking with other people. And if he wants to act like a gigantic full of shit hairy asshole, then it's pretty much all fair game when it comes to responding to him. Is my opinion. :) If he wants to play, he better deal with the consequences.

    Unlike JP, I don't censor comments on this blog, I prefer to engage in arguments (unless it's just pure spam- I admit to having deleted quite a few spam/no content posts from this guy: )

  53. I'm not feeding the troll... I am the troll...

    AE, that makes you my bridge, and insults my toll. And everyone else is a goat, except Jewish Philosopher, who thinks he's the frog prince, but actually he's one of those really poisonous dart frogs from the Amazon.

    Yep, that's how I see it.

  54. Regarding why JP should kill himself:

    It's one thing to be miserable, which is no reason to kill yourself, but it's another entirely to be the cause of misery in others.

    Sorry, JP (though not really), but we'd all be happier if you just sat in a tub with a box cutter and played "Do I have the courage?"

  55. interesting moral dilemma, which is worse:

    1. Telling people to kill themselves on the internet
    2. Telling people you will kill them on the internet
    3. Getting people arrested for threatening to kill people on the internet
    4. Calling someone's parents based on their blog
    5. Getting JP fired from his job after he called a blogger's parents to tell them she was a slut

    So many differing opinions on censorship vs. trolling and the internet vs. reality. Interesting times we live in.

  56. AE,

    I don't think accurately labeling JP as a psychopath means that he's being given a pass for his behavior. He IS unstable, but he can still make decisions, and he's responsible for his actions.

  57. Philo - I think your use of the word "accurately" is hyperbolic at best, we are not qualified professionals to asses such things, and even if we were, you can't assess someone's psychological state over the internet.

  58. you can't assess someone's psychological state over the internet.

    Obviously, you forgot about Web Therapy.

  59. B, you're right, what was I thinking, I forgot about a completely fictional tv show about web therapy :)

  60. It's not fictional if I believe it. Then it's mythology.

  61. Bret, good on you for defending your wife, not that she requires any defense. In another time and place nobody would have raised an eyebrow if you'd horsewhipped the fool.

  62. so no sex, love or companionship if I want to live an atheist lifestyle vs. living an orthodox lifestyle if I ever want to have sex love and companionship?

    Do I get to masturbate in this scenario that will never happen?

  63. AE, he specified that every man was Orthodox. That still gives you options, and the prohibition is only rabbinical ;)

  64. Jp has a very wierd fascination with proving that atheism is always about premarital sex. I don't think that covers cases of people who become atheists after they are married and are having "permissible" sex. I am speaking from experience here, since I was married for several years before it occurred to me that I no longer believed in it all.

  65. i think its great that you allow JP to post here.

    People should see that orthodox rabbinic judasim frowns upon normal, natural human activities. like eating, dating, sex, and other rational, normal human endevours. not only that, but this crazy, cultish religion says th at if you engage in these normal things, you are going to go to hell (ha!) or you are selfish or sleazy, or a bum ....unlike the frum yid, who is so selfless (indeed he is! he sacrifices his entire life in this world...for whatt?!?! zilch.)

  66. so, see if you can follow this....DONT HAVE SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE!

    enjoy that

    your obsession with who/when/where/how OTHER people engage in this normal activity has people leaving this cult in droves. (if not for the 10-12 babies charedim churn out, the cult would die a rightful death)

  67. I believe in evolution, masturbate, and don't hate Jewish atheists.

    You probably think I'm sort of secret atheist, but you need to understand people march to their own beat.

  68. Yikes.

    I realized I was an atheist at 4 years old. I did not know the word atheist, I just didn't believe in all the god and church and praying stuff. It seemed silly to me.

    So what really caused me to not believe was sex??

    And luckily I wasn't brought up in a family where I was psychologically imprisoned against my will to conform.

  69. Dang, those comments by holy hyrax on the other post were NASTY!

    Reminds me of the george carlin bit, when he goes thru the 10 comandments and throws them by one, he hits "honor your parents" and basically says....WHAT?!?! Honor them? Only if the DESERVE to be honored,,,,if they dont desrve it? Screw them!! Thats BS. S take that comandment out!

  70. "so they just turn to name calling and threats"

    kind of like frum rabbis!

    "George Carlin, the drunk.."

    kind of like most members in shuls in monsey, boro park, flatbush, lakewood...etc. etc.


  71. ksil - JP represents himself, period.

    Whatever other beefs anyone has with Orthodoxy, its rabbis are not known for going around trolling on the internet, telling people to kill themselves, throwing around obscene insults and making sexual comments to young women.

    I get that there are creeps on the internet who get off on being rude, crude and lewd. JP happens to be one of them. While he pretends to be on some holy mission, he openly admits that he doesn't discuss his posts with any other living rabbi and hasn't responded to a challenge to identify another living rabbi who would approve of what he posted to Tova, despite the fact that there's no lack of rabbis in Monsey.

  72. JP,

    You realize that the number of people that watch a Yankees game (including television) exceeds the number of Orthodox Jews in America, right?

    In a full week, there are going to be more people in Yankee stadium watching games in than there are Shomer Shabbat Jews in America, right?

    Talking about the lack of "Orthodox DUIs" or other malcontent behavior is meaningless. The reason you rarely hear about these sort of things is that:

    1. Religious affiliation of people in these areas aren't released


    2. There simply aren't a lot of Orthodox Jews, period

    According to stats in wikipedia, there are between 1.4M and 1.5M arrests for DUI per year, in a country of 310 MILLION people. How many DUIs do you want to hear about in a population of 600,000 of which MANY are under the driving age, MANY are unidentifiable for stats (an arrested Hassidic Jew would stand out, a modern Orthodox Jew would not unless he chose to wear his kippa while being arrested), disproportionately live in low-car densities areas of New York?

    You don't get a lot of DUIs in New York compared to the rest of the country, because of the many people who don't drive.

    So this comment, like most of your hate filled rhetoric, is nonsensical.

  73. Whats the basis for me suggesting that there is a major alchohol problem among frum jews?

    Eye witness


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