Well, my dad mentioned something about B converting to reform Judaism last week, and the idea has taken hold a bit. I talked with B about it, and he says that while he really doesn't want to, he would do it if it made me happy/helped to repair my relationship with my parents.
I'm more hesitant than him. For several reasons
1) as S(b) mentioned in a comment below this; where does it end? Does it end with him converting, or will we need to have a rabbi marry us, orthodox conversion, bris's for our kids, etc. Would my parents insist on having a big wedding with my family invited? I doubt they would, cause a reform conversion won't be enough for my extended family, but I really don't even want the possibility of that.
2) I'm uncertain as to whether I want back into the Jewish community. I know I wouldn't be back in full force, but this would open up some doors that I'm not sure I want opened up.
3) I've been looking up some reform conversion stuff, and while there's this whole myth among orthodox people that reform conversions are bullshit, from what I've seen they really arn't. The info I've been able to find is that B would have to attend an 18 week class on judaism, celebrate holidays for a year, go to synagogue twice a week for a year, and meet with a rabbi regularly. That seems a bit much to ask him, especially given he's not all excited about this in the first place. And I couldn't in good conscious send him off to a jew 101 class without going to the class with him...and do I want to sit through a judaism class for 4 and a half months? no. So why would I make him do something that I would never want to do myself? That seems very unfair.
4) there's also the rampant atheism on his part. Would he need to suppress that during classes/meetings with rabbis? I can't imagine that would be easy for him. If his atheistic tendencies come out in class (as they are bound to do), would that mean a rabbi would refuse to convert him?
5) While I no longer believe in the orthodox jewish traditions, it seems kinda shadey to me to have him convert for me, and basically lie to a rabbi for a year about his true beliefs.
6) if he didn't lie, and told the rabbi that he was converting for me, would a rabbi agree to convert him?
7) In sum, this seems like a lot of effort just to get back on my parent's good side. And I'm not even sure if I want to be on their good side. Or that it would work to put me on their good side, despite what my dad casually mentioned.
Thoughts anyone?
There is always the Society for Humanistic Judaism (http://www.shj.org/).
ReplyDeleteAmong other things, this wouldn't require the inherently dishonest act of faking beliefs you don't actually have.
do they do conversions? I can't find any info about that on their website
ReplyDeleteI don't think so, I can't imagine they'd require conversions at all. But I also can't imagine they'd have any problems with you *and* B affiliating with them, as is.
ReplyDeleteTo quote from the statement of beliefs: "Each Jew has the right to create a meaningful Jewish lifestyle free from supernatural authority and imposed tradition."
There is a congregation in the Philadelphia area: http://www.shirshalom-phila.org/
ReplyDelete(I have one near me as well, but haven't felt the need to join with them. I classify myself as a hopeful Deist -- it'd be nice if there was Someone out there to catch us afterwards, but I see no evidence of a benevolent interventionary Deity, and I have no confidence that a Deity exists at all. And if I'm wrong, I hope the Mormons are right, since as long as you don't become a Mormon and then quit, the worst you can get is a lesser Paradise, and you have the option to convert after death.)
i'm more concerned with you not getting closer to your parents. I like reconcilliation. it could be good if you guys could talk more. Anyway conversion...honesty definitely. Unless the conversion will lead to something more I fail to see the point.
ReplyDeleteThe Humanists if memory serves don't require conversion to be Jewish.
ReplyDeleteyeah, shj! :) <--sincere smile
ReplyDeleteI remember digging them when I was in college.
Can I make a serious book recommendation?
The Blessing of the Skinned Knee
Here's an article about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/magazine/01parenting.html?fta=y&pagewanted=all
Also, check your PM elsewhere.
> 6) if he didn't lie, and told the rabbi that he was converting for me, would a rabbi agree to convert him?
ReplyDeleteIn commenting on your last post I suggested considering a Reform conversion. I must admit that when I said that I was working under the orthodox myth that Reform conversions are bullshit. I really should know better. Old habits die hard I guess.
I wouldn't recommend that B lie in order to convert. If you can be honest with a Rabbi about what you guys believe, and the Rabbi will convert B anyway, AND your family says that this conversion would be enough to welcome B/possible kids into the family, then my recommendation is you should consider it.
re: #6, ck will tell you the oj answer is no. I think if you answer all of the questions you asked for yourself, and not online, you'll find the right answers for you. And B deserves to have a choice in the matter, too.
ReplyDeleteWhat rips my heart out is the toxic bundtloaf thing I've read about repeatedly over the past few years. You know that Janis Joplin cover of "Move Over," where she talks about the mule and the carrot?
When families make conditional love the carrot on a string, it sucks to be the mule. Or to be Charlie Brown always going after a football of love that keeps being yanked out of reach at the last minute. This isn't an OJ thing, this is a dysfunction thing.
I'd hate for you to get hurt again. I know what it's like to feel like love for you grows or diminishes based on level of religious observance (even though, in my case, I was wrong, that's really how I felt, so that was my reality, until it was cleared up), and it's teh suck. No one deserves that. ((ae))
best wishes, whatever you decide.
Er, haven't you been through this before? I seem to remember your last boyfriend converted... or am I just making stuff up?
ReplyDeleteAnyways, since you have two X chromosomes, there's no pressure to have B convert 'cuz your kids are stamped fully Jewish according to all Jewish movements no matter what. (FYI, the idea that the kids "follow the mother" has *absolutely* no Biblical source... nevertheless USY and the OU have bought that line hook line and sinker. At least the Reform are smarter than that.)
Reform and Conservative communities also wouldn't have any problem with an intermarried couple attending services, etc. No biggie. Although B might not get an aliya in a Conservative synagogue. There's a book about that, A Place Within the Tent.
If you are interested in conversion for the sake of your family, an "halakhic" (read, Ortho) conversion is the only way to go. You might want to talk to a couple of rabbis. Since B is in a relationship with you, there may be no need for a long course or process. After all, the halakhic requirements for conversion are only that the convert know a small "sampling" of Jewish law before conversion. You learn the rest "on the job."
The more important requirement are good reasons for conversion. There's no reason to lie here. Acceptable reasons might include having kids that are fully recognized as Jews, or your decision as a couple to live a life that makes Judaism an important part (whatever that means to you). FYI, joint Reform-Conservative-Orthodox etc. conversions have been performed in the past, although I'm not sure what the requirements are (hopefully not that you have to keep strict kashrut!). Rabbi Marc Angel wrote a book about this (the Sephardim are somewhat cooler on conversions than the Litvaks).
E-mail me if you want more info... I'm studying up myself.
When families make conditional love the carrot on a string, it sucks to be the mule.
ReplyDeleteBingo, bango, boom. I agree in principle. But there's gotta be some kind of reconciliation between AE and her family, for both their sakes.
"When families make conditional love the carrot on a string, it sucks to be the mule."
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping that AE is wrong and it is not that there's conditional love. Sometimes when parents are hurt it is emotionally easier for them to create distance. As for the child there may be mixed feelings. On one hand more freedom is welcome but on the other the feeling that if the parents don't reflect in reaction their full feelings it means that there is less love. but that is not so. the distance can simply be the result of such love that it is too great to bear.
Let's be honest here AE. Your family will never accept him even if he "converts". He's not a real Jew because he doesn't have it in his blood. He's not part of the "elite" tribe.
ReplyDeleteIf that's inconsequential, I still propose that he does not go through with it. It's going completely against his values and you shouldn't ask him to do that just to (barely) placate your family.
If his parents said they would refuse to meet you unless you converted to christianity/islam/voodoo would you do it?
ReplyDeleteIf I refused to meet you unless you gave me $100, would you do it?
I think the gesture on B's part of even offering to convert is magnificent. I could not make the same offer. I also could not ask him to go through with it.
i like the previous comment about how you would feel about his parents wanting you to convert to Christianity. Your answer to that should be a guide for how you would want B to act.
ReplyDeleteabout the actual conversion itself . . from what you have written, i don't think that your parents will really be satisfied with this step. they probably see this as a stepping stone to pushing you to further observance and moving towards orthodoxy. once they get you to do this, then they will rationalize that one little more thing is not such a big deal and can nag the hell out of you to do that.
i think you have to ask yourself where does it end and what you will be comfortable doing (or faking).
candy man- my ex converted before I met him. But you bring up a good point...my ex was an (orthodox) convert, and wasn't good enough for my family, immediate or extended. My parent's also refused to talk to him or let him in their house for like the first 2 years we dated because he wasn't jewish enough. I still lived with my parents then, and when he would come to pick me up, my mom would see who was at the door and go to get me, without opening the door for him and leaving him on the stoop. My grandmother told me she was praying for us to break up. Why would this be any different? It probably wouldn't
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I think my dad is trying to find some way in which to reconcile his beliefs with my actions, and this conversion suggestion might be his way of trying to come to a compromise in which he could be ok with B, and not fully go against his beliefs. And it will go a long way towards alleviating the embarrassment he'll probably feel in the future when it gets out to friends and family that I married a "goy"
But I agree with most people here- where will it end, also is not fair to ask B to do that.
AE,
ReplyDeleteIf you love B, I don't think it's fair to ask B to do something that he's not really comfortable with. And will it really make a difference to your parents? I doubt it. It's probably just something your father said off the top of his head out of desparation.
However, you can still affiliate with a Reform or Reconstructionist shul. They will accept B as a member even if he doesn't convert. I have relatives where they raise the kids as Jewish and the non-Jewish husband is active in the Temple even without conversion.
Of course, you and B probably don't want to affiliate that much with religion at all, but if you are looking for a gesture for your folks, joining a Reform or Recon congregation and going to services a few times a year should serve.
Since they presumably won't accept a Reform conversion as valid, the fact that your father mentioned it means he's grasping for some hope that you'll have some Jewish connection. Both of you joining a shul as a couple might give him that hope and allow for some level of reconciliation.
You can say to them: "Mom, Dad, I'm not going to ask B to convert to something he doesn't believe in, but we will join a temple and raise our kids with some Jewish identity."
As a conservative Jew, I don't think B should convert unless he is ready and Willing. That said, while a reform conversion is actual work, it may not be as philosophically or practically challenging as a conservative or orthodox conversion.
ReplyDeleteUnlike Orthodox or Conservative, B's level of mitzvah observance would be up to himself as a reform Jew. So he could continue to eat whatever he wanted, etc. With regard to the agnostic/atheist issue, according to a web answer by a Rabbi Goldwasser, "Uncertainty about God should be no impediment for your fiance to convert to Judaism if he is actively interested in converting"
So I think the question for B is whether he is actively interested.
As I think about it further, I would note that being part of a community can be very positive, particularly when you have children. One of my brothers belonged to a reform synagogue for a while and loved the community. (He wasn't thrilled with the service, but that comes from having grown up conservative and going to an orthodox synagogue).
If B decided that he wanted to convert, a welcoming community might well be one benefit. That could be nice, since I doubt that your family will be quite as welcoming.
I think B should "convert". Your dad is slowly coming to accept B and at this point, I think he would be happy as long as B "converted" according to some definition in the world - so long as he can tell his family and friends that B is Jewish by some definition. I imagine that he would be happy with any "conversion" by anyone with a Rabbi title. Maybe Rabbi David Gruber (http://littlefoxling.blogspot.com/2007/11/guest-post-from-david-gruber.html) could do the conversion?
ReplyDeleteAlthough it won't make everyone happy, making your dad happy can help mend your relationship with your family down the road. If some rabbi will convert B without much effort (or belief), why not go for it? I don't think anyone would expect more than this. They all know you don't believe and did this to make them happy. You and B did as much as you could.
Mamela, my heart breaks for you. Please take out some time to let your readers understand what REALLY hurt you in your yiddishkeit background. Were you rejected by a teacher in school? Did bratty girls make fun of you - or not include you in their social gatherings? To judge your writing - it seems that you are highly intelligent and sophisticated. It just cannot be that you are abandoning our beautiful lifestyle without having experienced something bitter. Please understand that life is full of challenges, no matter how you live it - - and G-D puy each and every one of us here for a reason - and with a mission to accomplish. I am sure that deep in your heart you know that it is IMPOSSIBLE for this world to survive by some fluke of science. THink about it: G-d doesn't need you or me - He can do whatever He wants. BUT , we most certainly need him. If life seems challenging - it is only to make us stronger - -there is so much beauty in Torah - Please rethink what abondoning it will ultimately do to you and your future generations.
ReplyDeleteI say all of the above with kindness and compassion.
It's great that your dad is trying to find a way to deal with this. Perhaps telling him you wouldn't falsely convert just to please B's parents, therefore you will not ask/expect him to do the same. Better an honest atheist than a lying Jew, regardless of observance level, no? (plus, he will get warm fuzzy knowing you wouldn't convert out) You can always remind him of the obvious that any kids you have will always be Jewish, whether your home is an observant one or not. If you want to be extra gentle, maybe remind him that some people's paths look more like (below), than a straight line.
ReplyDeletehttp://an-inkling.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/blair.jpg
Better an honest path that's long and windy and a short, straight one made of lies and angst. (imo) You can remind him that you weren't asleep at the wheel, all those years in yeshiva, and just 'cause you don't go to shul doesn't mean the values you were taught don't play any role in your daily life. He can trust your educators and the job he and your mom did as parents (hopefully) teaching you good stuff like tikkun olam, bikkur cholim, hachnasat orchim, derech eretz, etc. If you respect him enough to not want to lie to him. If both you and B respect him enough to not want to lie to him. Hopefully he can trust that life is a journey and your on a good path, the foundation of which he helped lay. If he is a part of your lives, perhaps he can have a positive influence on you as you make a home together. If he chooses not to be a part of your lives, it's his choice not to have done all he could. (ew. this stuff is way heavy. much love, ae.)
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMamela... what REALLY hurt you in your yiddishkeit background.
...I say all of the above with kindness and compassion.
Kindness and compassion? Funny, it sounded like you were being condescending.
What really bugs me about the situation is this. I'm going to give an actual case to illustrate this. There was someone who also went OTD to a great degree when you were either not born or else only a child. Years later that someone's boy was practicing for his Bar Mitzvah and the feeling of the then parent while waiting while he's practicing for his Bar Mitzvah is why am I feeling so like let's get it over with? "What's the point?" that one felt. As a result that one then came back at least to considerable degree. No longer is religion cut off but instead all the closeness is there. No one could have predicted this. But the residual feelings of Judaism were there to begin with but unexamined. My point is don't do today what you will regret tomorrow. Do we know if you will regret anything? No but the one who can best answer this and this by being super honest with yourself and not bringing in any emotional resentments and baggage is only you. That's all I can objectively say. I see one generation having lived several years ago in resolution and now you pop up and you are also so sure of yourself as that other one was. Certainly with all of this emotional baggage there's a lot to sort out. That other one is no longer able to have full control over life as far as how that one would would want the son to be nor fully how that one would like life to be. You still have that enviable control. Use it wisely because it will not be the you of today who will judge how well you have done but the you years later. Good luck whatever you decide.
ReplyDeleteNo one can predict the future.
ReplyDeleteFaith is an ongoing decision.
Marriage is an ongoing decision.
Life is an ongoing decision.
The person I am today is not the person I was 20 years ago, but the roots of who I am were there.
As a good friend of mine said, "I'm not the man I was 10 years ago, but I still have pretty much all his stuff."
However, it is fallacious to say that someone shouldn't act on what they believe on the grounds that they don't know the future.
That will always be true, and that argument would mean that we would never act.
It is also fallacious to say that we shouldn't make decisions now that we might regret. Again, that is the case with any significant decision.
Finally, it is absolutely true that some decisions preclude other options. Again, this is always the case. Every thing we do precludes some thing, even if it is only the opportunity to have done something else with that time.
Make the best decision you can, with what you know, that is all you can do.
dave, you're cool.
ReplyDelete"However, it is fallacious to say that someone shouldn't act on what they believe on the grounds that they don't know the future."
ReplyDeleteI agree but I was arguing that she should make sure of what she believes with the reminder that she in the future would want the best decision to have been made but of course it is the present her that has to make that decision. No one wants to make a decision they would regret even while realizing they still may even after reviewing what they want to do. We do this in life all the time but we sometimes forget because of the matters of the moment.
Mamela, my heart breaks for you. Please take out some time to let your readers understand what REALLY hurt you in your yiddishkeit background. Were you rejected by a teacher in school? Did bratty girls make fun of you - or not include you in their social gatherings?
ReplyDeleteThese kind of honest and sincere posts are one of the many things that drive me mad about religion. It makes people so convinced they that what they believe is true and good that the only way an intelligent person like AE would leave is because they were burnt by the system.
It is true that some people get burnt and leave but many others leave because they have come to the intelligent conclusion that Orthodoxy is false and oppressive. I appreciate this commenters intention but it is a terribly naive and close-minded one.
@ dave:
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me you're implying that one day AE will change her mind about escaping orthodoxy and marrying a non-Jew. Let me make this very clear to you: ATHEISM IS NOT A GODDAMN PHASE!
My parents belittled me when I informed them of my atheism and I still believe my dad thinks it's simply a childish, rebellious period in my life. Clearly, AE, like most atheists, came to that position after a thorough examination of the germane arguments. Please refrain from making such subtlety condescending comments b/c it insults what atheism and atheists represent.
I'm basing my assertions above primarily on this sentence: "Faith is an ongoing decision."
Not to point fingers at your family, since I have no doubt that mine would ask the same of me if I was in your situation, but this attitude of asking the person to convert is so incredibly hypocritical on their part. Haven't they told us all those years in yeshiva of how terrible it is when people convert for the wrong reasons just in order to gain some sort of self-serving benefit from it?
ReplyDeleteAnd now they're asking for someone to do just that so that they can feel better about themselves!
(Again, this is not directed at your family specifically. I imagine almost every Ultra-O family would react that way.)
I think it would be helpful to emphasize that whatever the causes of atheism and OTD and they can and do vary from the trivial to the thoughtful it is irrelevant to what she is going through except to the extent it matches her experience. If there is subjectivity and objectivity in her decisions she must see it through her own experience. Us inflaming things will not help her. I can only objectively tell her to have in mind serious reflection of all circumstances. For the rest I can offer my oppinion like all. Mine is not to intermarry but she is really in need not of our pronouncements but of our help to help her see her situation as best as she can. She has the capability of knowing it better than we can.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:
ReplyDeleteYou need to read what I wrote a little more carefully.
Leaving aside that I described my beliefs (which are closer to Atheist than anything else) in an earlier post on this thread, you appear to be jumping to conclusions based on your particular experiences rather than reading what I actually wrote.
Faith is an ongoing decision. Whatever your beliefs are now, you can change them. If you couldn't, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. AE's parents wouldn't have become religious, and AE wouldn't have become an Atheist.
And in fact, my point was pretty much exactly the opposite of your reading. I find any arguments of the form "You shouldn't do [whatever] because you might become observant again" to be inherently invalid. She might. She might also become a Buddhist, an Evangelical Christian, or stay an Atheist. And the AE of 10 years from now (or 5 years from now, or 50 years from now) will make those decisions.
One thing we do know, is that we don't know what the answer to an ongoing decision is going to be. If we did, it wouldn't be an ongoing decision.
My parents belittled me when I informed them of my atheism and I still believe my dad thinks it's simply a childish, rebellious period in my life.
ReplyDeleteAs a Theistic Observant Jew who is still mainly shomer mitzvot but whose philosophy is left-wing and whose practice is liberal, I had a much smaller challenge with regard to my family.
But I can still relate. The first time they realized that I had changed, my family, too, assumed I was going through a phase and that they assumed I would come back to the naive RW religious idealism of my late teens.
It's been many years now, and I think they've accepted where I am. But one of my sisters keeps telling me that I should read the beautiful inspiring letters I wrote home when I was around 18-19 and become re-inspired with my own words.
"Clearly, AE, like most atheists, came to that position after a thorough examination of the germane arguments."
ReplyDeleteMost atheists like most theists haven't been the most thourough. Much of their philosophy is simply from one crowd over their former crowd. if your different fine. In any event these theoretical arguments are not of as much help at this point to AE as personal advice as to how she can examine her own feelings.
AE,
ReplyDeletemy ex was an (orthodox) convert, and wasn't good enough for my family, immediate or extended. My parent's also refused to talk to him or let him in their house for like the first 2 years we dated because he wasn't jewish enough.
Geez, what's wrong with people. How Jewish do you have to get?
I guess your parents are rethinking those decisions now, eh? :)
On the other hand, I think my dad is trying to find some way in which to reconcile his beliefs with my actions, and this conversion suggestion might be his way of trying to come to a compromise in which he could be ok with B, and not fully go against his beliefs... But I agree with most people here- where will it end, also is not fair to ask B to do that.
I think B has to make up his own mind, for the right reasons. It's up to him, anyways. But don't close any doors. I don't know about you, but this shit weighs on me. We've only got another few decades left with your folks, and we only live once. Being on good terms with your family improves everyone's quality of life. If you see a way out, a way to reconcile with your family, I'd explore it.
Hey CandyMan how come you are making sense for a change :-)
ReplyDeleteI'm going to disagree slightly with you.
ReplyDeleteIf you can have a relationship with your family without betraying your own values and beliefs, then it is a good thing.
But yes, life is short, and we don't know how short it will be. And that means it is also too short to live a lie.
My girlfriend offered to convert and I told her flat out what a commitment it was. She said she was prepared to do it, but I said I saw no reason she should forfeit her beliefs (or lack thereof) as well as I mine, just so that we could be together in a system neither of us believed in. Completely senseless.
ReplyDeleteI did look at Orthodox, Conservative and Reform conversions and I have to say, they're pretty much all the same where I'm from.
Reform actually require you to speak Hebrew (how many frum teenagers my side of the pond speak hebrew? I can count them on one hand), be an active member in a synagogue for a year or so, and is generally every bit as strict as the Orthodox one. Except Orthodoxy are now talking about retroactively voiding conversions, which sounds complex from a halachic points of view...
If you need proof for why Judaism is an utterly false belief then here you go. Why should an atheist have to bend over backwards appeasing a belief he does not believe in? Both you and your husband need to stay true to yourselves; as religion has enough of an unwanted influence on our lives as it is. Screw reform or humanistic judaism, screw judaism period, as these other schools are designed to keep you bound by the shackles of dogma one way or another.
ReplyDeletePeople need to start standing up and refuse to partake in this crap anymore, just so you can appease parents and traditionalism.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIf you need proof for why Judaism is an utterly false belief then here you go. Why should an atheist have to bend over backwards appeasing a belief he does not believe in?"
Judaism didn't say that. Her father was talking. Perhaps he didn't even think of a false conversion but thought that once the ball rolls it will be sincere.
@ most recent anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI agree with every word of what you stated. Screw every incarnation of Judaism (and Christianity, etc..) from so-called and absurd Humanistic to Orthodox and everything in between. Jews are so enamored with this idea of birthright and keeping everyone in the tribe. It's refreshing to see another person voice the disdain for the insularity of the Jewish community at large.
The individual, as in B, is inconsequential because he's not Jewish. And AE's parents, and their community including commenters above, can only see AE as a person with Jewish blood instead of an individual with thoughts, beliefs, and actions that are of her own creation and not the blind adherence to archaic traditions.
Even the secular Jews, those unwilling to part with cultural tradition, succumb to "the shackles of dogma." In any other community, AE wouldn't even have to ask this question. She's an atheist who shouldn't have to define herself and her husband according to antiquated and insular cultural traditions. Culture is a communistic idea that should have no relevance in a modern world. It's arbitrary and devoid of value.
BTW: I'm "Jewish".
" FYI, the idea that the kids "follow the mother" has *absolutely* no Biblical source... nevertheless USY and the OU have bought that line hook line and sinker. At least the Reform are smarter than that. "
ReplyDeleteNo one's bought any line. That's how Rabbinic Judaism works. It doesn't matter what happened in Biblical times, because it's been legislated different since then.
AE:
based on what you've said about your father, i'm completely shocked by this development; he seems to be grasping at straws and going out on a huge limb himself beyond his comfort zone. of course, if it's all just to be able to describe B as "Jewish [in some way]" i can't see that as a particularly good reason.
The individual, as in B, is inconsequential because he's not Jewish. And AE's parents, and their community including commenters above, can only see AE as a person with Jewish blood instead of an individual with thoughts, beliefs, and actions that are of her own creation and not the blind adherence to archaic traditions."
ReplyDeleteYou are making only wrong assumptions here and it is not helpful to her. She needs to come closer to her family and they to her.
"In any other community, AE wouldn't even have to ask this question."
That's not so.
"She's an atheist who shouldn't have to define herself and her husband according to antiquated and insular cultural traditions. Culture is a communistic idea that should have no relevance in a modern world. It's arbitrary and devoid of value."
What's the modern world? Not arbitrary?
to anon@anon, re: "The individual, as in B, is inconsequential because he's not Jewish. And AE's parents, and their community including commenters above, can only see AE as a person with Jewish blood instead of an individual with thoughts, beliefs, and actions that are of her own creation and not the blind adherence to archaic traditions."
ReplyDeleteTake a literacy class. You think we are blind; I'm not. Please, if you must attack, attack invidually.
I don't care about AE's blood. I care about her and B's happiness and honesty with themselves and each other.
Her relationship with her parents will fall into place (whatever place that may be) once some peace is made in her.
I don't know what Judaism you know, but the one I know is inextricably related to me being [an individual with thoughts, beliefs, and actions that are of her own creation and not the blind adherence to archaic traditions], as you put it. Vive la difference.
cheers to RG for making the distinction between the parent and the religion. Realizing that was a huge step in my own development, and I feel it's key.
I don't think he should convert if he doesn't really want to be Jewish. Being Jewish is a big responsibiliy. A non-Jew shouldn't jump into it if they don't feel able to do it.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to reform conversion, there's really no point, since he will still halachically not be Jewish. There has to be three torah observant rabbis there at the beis din.
I think he should just stay a non-Jew. And if he wants to, he could learn about Judaism, and maybe later on decide what to do.
In regards to your children, if you have a son, you should give him a bris because what if when he's older, he wants to be religious and then finds out he never had a bris which binds him to the covenant. That will complacate things. And so do it for him
shalom
"cheers to RG for making the distinction between the parent and the religion."
ReplyDeleteThank you. It is very important to try for as much of a reconciliation as possible. I am very happy I let my parents know how much I loved them. I can't do it any more as they passed away. I would hate to see others not have the same relationship with their parents before they pass away.