Dear Abba,
B and I have read over your last message carefully, and given it full thought. The answer is no. B will not be converting to Judaism. We will be getting married on May 17th 2009, in the ceremony of our choosing. If you would like to lend us a chuppah to use during the ceremony so that we are incorporating some jewish traditions into our ceremony, we will be happy to exchange the vows we have written under one.
Your aims are not my aims. I do not want our children to have a religious identity. I'm not an atheist because I am lazy or I think religion is too hard, or I don't think it's a big deal. I think organized religion is wrong, and harmful, and I do not want to expose our children to that way of thinking. Having B convert would be a larger compromise than I am willing to make. And for what? Getting invited to a family reunion or two each year? Your stamp of your approval? Your love? If he converts, then what? Everything is hunky dory? We're just try to forget that your refused to even meet him for the past 2 years? That your love was conditional on him converting? That I wrote to you asking for a more honest and open relationship, and you replied by asking me to undertake an elaborate hoax so that you can save face in front of your family and your community?
If you feel that inviting us both to family events would be too much strain, and that you can't accept B into the family unless he converts, then that is your choice, and we will go our separate ways. How the other members of our extended family decides to treat us is up to them. If you ever decide to welcome B and me back into your life then I will happily try to forget the extremely disrespectful way in which you have treated us over the past few years, and will be happy to resume a relationship with you. We will also be happy to dress appropriately and keep the laws of kasharut, etc, for any time we are under your roof.
With Love,
Abandoning Eden
So what do ya'll think? I'm thinking I might leave out the middle paragraph. Then again, there's stuff in there that needs to be said, and maybe me always trying to not hurt his feelings is what led to this situation.
I don't like it. Too harsh.
ReplyDelete"And for what? Getting invited to a family reunion or two each year? Your stamp of your approval? Your love?"
ReplyDeleteI think it's pretty clear where your values lie. If you don't want a word to pass between you and your father for a decade then this is the letter that could easily make it happen. I hope you don't regret it.
I think the middle paragraph is too harsh.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, it looks fair.
You have to ask yourself what your goal is here. This letter will simply create more bad feelings. If you want to get things off your chest, you should speak to B or a therapist. This letter will simply escalate the bad feelings.
ReplyDeleteI would rewrite it to be very brief and just say that you are not willing to ask B to convert, but that you are open to some Jewish identity for your kids, perhaps. Even if that's barely true, it keeps a door open for your folks. The sentence:
I do not want our children to have a religious identity.
slams your feelings in his face and will have no constructive result, only a negative one.
I would wait a few days before sending anything to your dad to allow yourself to get the anger out of your system.
Good luck.
I find this mail very honest, I can feel it comes from the depth of your heart.
ReplyDeleteSo if there were some open discussion possible, it would be ideal to launch discussion and to get an open discussion going.
Unfortunately, I have not the impression that your family is ready to hear the truth that comes from the bottom of your heart, if it implies at the same time criticism against them. (In such cases, parents tend to hear only the criticism and to get angry (this is what I receive after all I have done for her), and they are not able to respond objectively.)
It is a very strong letter, (which I find admirable), but it is also a resounding rejecting of something he thaught was a "compromise".
I'd rather ask about his (your father's) religious committment in the light of the fact that he wants an atheist to convert...
i'd take out this part:
ReplyDelete"And for what? Getting invited to a family reunion or two each year? Your stamp of your approval? Your love? If he converts, then what? Everything is hunky dory? We're just try to forget that your refused to even meet him for the past 2 years? That your love was conditional on him converting? That I wrote to you asking for a more honest and open relationship, and you replied by asking me to undertake an elaborate hoax so that you can save face in front of your family and your community? "
by the way, you left you name in your post, in case you didn't realize
Way too harsh - just say that a conversion makes no sense for someone who does not intend to live an orthodox lifestyle. Unless what your father is thinking is that B will get a reform conversion and then he can say he went to your reform Jewish wedding.
ReplyDeleteYou could point out that any children you'd have will be Jewish anyhow, say that you hope they will get to know their grandparents and hope that over time your family will get to know B too.
I think it is better to ignore insults and be positively aggressive with your point of view in their terms without insulting or criticizing the other side.
My story in all this is that my mother had an orthodox conversion (in Australia long before she met my father in the UK). But my wife isn't Jewish. My mother and MO brother came to my secular wedding. So all kinds of things are possible if people have the right attitude. Of course I'm a lot older and so they had plenty of time to get reconciled to the way I am than Arielle has.
I've never understood why children born to Jewish mothers are considered Jewish, but not from a Jewish father. Isn't it arbitrary? I mean, from a biological/ethnic perspective, the child of a Jewish mother/non-jewish father and vice-versa are the same.
ReplyDeleteIf you feel so strongly, why are you bothering to reply? To even the score? To make sure he knows where you stand (like he doesn't know)?
ReplyDeleteGive it up and realize that you have severed the ties to your previous life and your parents. Can't give it up??
Then I think a couple of replies on your previous post make a good point. Basically, you have a lot of unfinished business and you should seek a professional to help you through them (not a bunch of bloggers playing amateur counselors). Otherwise this will haunt you long after your parents move on to their eternal rest ...
You could point out that you thank him very much for making an attempt to find a solution.
ReplyDeleteIt proves that he also finds the current situation unhealthy and hurtful for both parties.
However, you do not see how the solution he proposes could work practically, since in the orthodox judaism as far as you know it, it is not possible to convert without believing in G-d and practicing religion in an orthodox way.
You understand what made him propose this solution, but either it would make you betray very basic values of Judaism in a way that neither you nor he himself would want, or it would not be neither a compromise, nor a win-win situation.
You apprieciate very much that he made a proposal and is trying to stretch out his hand to solve the situation.
He mentionned on his part that "he had not yet had the pleasure of meeting B", so there is nothing in the way of organising such a meeting. Perhaps in a talk with the three or four of you it would be possible to work something out.
If you write something along those lines, it does not look as though you were rejecting his "outstretched hand", but you show that you are very interested in finding a solution and that you are very empathic with his feelings, but unfortunately the proposal he made does not yet seem quite the solution you all want to find.
Ivy - clearly in the biblical period descent was patrilineal and was reversed with some convoluted arguments by the rabbis (I've forgotten where the arguments are presented - I studied this many years ago). Descent of levi'im and kohanim is still patrilineal.
ReplyDeleteOr you just say:
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for your mail. It really merits dues reflection. You said you had not yet had the pleasure of meeting B, so let's organise a meeting...
And in the meeting you can say that out of respect for judaism you do not want a fake conversion. (or drop the subject alltogether, as long as he does not bring it up)
Ivy,
ReplyDelete"I mean, from a biological/ethnic perspective, the child of a Jewish mother/non-jewish father and vice-versa are the same."
Really? Biologically the child spends 9 months inside of their father's uterus too?
In any case, there is an interesting parallel with early Roman law where virtually only Roman citizens had a status known as conubium which meant that a Roman marriage could potentially take place between the partners (aka kiddushin). The children of a marriage with conubium followed the status of the father and were Roman citizens. Otherwise, without conubium, say between a Roman and a foreigner - the status of the child followed the mother.
After thinking it over, I came to the conclusion, that your fathers proposal has the potential of becoming a true win/win solution.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you want? A normal relationship with your parents. What do they want? They want him to "become a jew". So there is no problem, you just have to stretch time, and every moment of "normal relationship" you gain with your parents is a win for you:
First you think the conversion thing over thouroughly (for one year or two). During all this period, they on their side should have a normal relationship with you and B. (in order to encourage B to convert).
Than B goes into a "conversion process", that will go on for the rest of your married life, i.e. he will never convert, just "be in the process", since the "conversion process" contains the possibility of refraining from converting.
Your risk is that B really falls in love with judaism, as your father hopes. Their risk is that he does not. So it's fair enough.
i.e.: you can accept your father's proposal fully, now he has to do something on his side.
ReplyDeleteWorst case scenario: back to what was until now.
His letter to you contained too many hoops for B. to jump through, for no reason.
ReplyDeleteTake out the middle paragraph and if you send it, don't expect to hear from him again.
I wish you and B. well in 2009
See I didn't think it was too harsh. The harshest thing I saw was the first sentence (No, no we will Not...). I actually thought by and large it was very good the way you framed it and also really really explained how you were experiencing the situation such that you couldn't do what he was asking- that it would be at too great of a price to you in these ways. (I'm sure he lives in a whole other mental world than you and I totally think it's communication that needs to happen first. But of course that means you both have to be good listeners too.) I thought it was great that you laid it out so clearly of why you couldn't do it, and the way it felt as a judgment on you for the sake of the family, rather than putting the father-daughter love and loyalty first and also having a love that was independent of external contingencies. Having your father do this to you (particularly to you because you were a girl) was and is hurtful. I'm sure he's not aware of the effect he's had on you because he's only seeing the world right now in his provincial orthodox way.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I think. Now of course, having different experiences VASTLY growing up, I don't think organized religion is all wrong- I think it has the potential to be very good (potential!). But I was brought-up to spurn organized religion for it's dogma by a father who left his church not to mention the whole rest of my family being way non-religious. Having been what I have been through in life since then, I now value organized religion, only spurning dogma and closed-mindedness. So from this perspective, I don't think your blanket statement about religion being bad will actually convey to him what you think it does. When you tell him you think organized religion is bad, I think rather you should explain to him briefly why/what it is you think is bad. What is damaging. NOT in an insulting way. But again in a way of communicating. Judaism is not evil, and religion has committed all sorts of evil through history, but that still does not mean it is all bad. Just as humanity is not all bad even though it might be a lot. So I would ask you to tell him what it is specifically you disagree with. (an unquestioning faith in a personified deity when life seems much more complex? an inflexible adherence to out-dated gender norms that would have short-changed you and your very soul by denying you your own path, personal identity, and self-development? the lack of respect toward you growing up from putting the strict sheltering above the actually love and relationship? the lack of love and warmth? I don't know. I'd be interested to hear how you would explain it too. That communication I really value. I think we get to the heart of things this way.
I just had to "break-up" with a friend at work who was acting "too friendly" around me. I think I finally managed to do it in a way that was completely non-insulting. I think your letter (though I'm not encouraging a break-up letter!) needs to also be completely non-insulting. But also, I really think it needs to demonstrate to him the respect and honesty that you would like to exist between you two. Show him how it's done, and demonstrate for him that that's what you expect for yourself in return. And please be sure he knows this is driven by your desire not to have to lose them. Not to HAVE TO make that draconian choice!
Good luck!!! I'm proud of you- this so is not easy and you've been doing great!!!
Seriously, at all times strive to set a tone of mutual respect, love, communication- the real desire to bridge understanding, because once you truly understand what is each motivating the other person, much of the tension will lighten. You both want this relationship. Maintain the tone- the honest and at times firm tone of honest communication explaining but not acting out the hurt (and thus anger, bitterness, the things that will be experienced as a counter-attack). Take enough time before you respond to not respond emotionally. That doesn't mean not communicating the emotions that you feel, and setting the boundaries and expectations you may need. But doing it clearly, dispassionately, lovingly, explaining why it is damaging to you and thus why you are choosing your own mental/spiritual health and safety by acting according to certain boundaries. He values his faith, but does not desire to hurt you. Our parents all hurt us though in some way that they don't mean to. They all do in some way to some degree. It's when we begin to really be ourselves in that wonderful adult way that we are able to accept them as human (limited and not us), and to forgive the hurt they have put on us even as we finally stand up to put an end to it. In a way it's forgiving them, accepting them, that is necessary for us to move on. I suspect it is at least.
ReplyDeleteThese are my thought anyway in regards to my own experiences. I think it is fascinating to see your specific experiences unfold. I want your father to be proud of you. But you are also going to have to try new ways to bridge and new sort of dynamics with him that are novel to your relationship. It has potential. That doesn't mean a lot of potential. Just saying there's some.
And I think your wedding needs to be the glorious day you are planning. He can't eclipse that beautiful rising sun that has made your life so warm and complete. He must be helped to see the virtue in that sun that has bring his beloved only daughter so much happiness. :) He needs to be part of the goodness.
Okay I'll stop going on and on!!! Good luck! You do your thing! And once my mom (who comes in a mere 5 hours and counting) leaves again, I am so eager to jump on these cards! I want to make the sun burst from the page. The beauty of it. Man I want these to be so beautiful! Now I am shutting up in 3, 2, 1. Shhhh!
*quietly beaming you good vibes*
I think the second paragraph is too harsh and "I do not want to expose our children..." has the feel shunning. It is very negative. It is what your father is doing to you. I would leave children out of it. My suggestion for the second paragraph if you leave it in at all:
ReplyDeleteYour aims are not my aims. I'm not an atheist because I am lazy or I think religion is too hard, or I don't think it's a big deal. I think organized religion is wrong and harmful. Having B convert would be a larger compromise than I am willing to make. I wrote to you hoping for a more honest and open relationship.
Also in the third paragraph: "family decides" Remove the "s".