I guess I just wanted to update on the anxiety situation since I only seem to post when things are going horribly wrong, which may leave my readers with a somewhat pessimistic view of my life.
Well, the anxiety seemed to be 100% travel related, because now that I'm back home it's entirely gone. I wasn't killed by any whores at my hotel, I don't seem to have caught swine flu (although I don't know how long the incubation period is, so who knows), and I got home ok, although my flight home was delayed by 2 hours for no discernible reason. Also at the conference I ran into a former graduate of my program and had a long talk with her about postdoc opportunities, so I'm a little more reassured about my future employment prospects.
On the flight home the lady sitting behind me was complaining to her friend about being hungry, so I offered her a granola bar. It turned out that the lady was an off-duty flight attendant, so she thanked me by giving me a coupon for a free (alcoholic) drink! I don't really drink usually, but since it was free and I had just spent 4 hours in the airport I mightily enjoyed my free $7.50 can of beer- it was some kind of delicious German wheat bear that had the word "Kugel" in the title.
Anyways, I didn't give her the granola bar to get a free drink, I gave it to her because I like helping out strangers and I feel like doing so makes the world just a tiny bit better (especially when we're stranded together in some kind of delayed flight situation). Can I call this a win for humanism? I think so.
[Can I also call my dog a win for humanism? People's faces just light up when they see him because he's such a cutie. It's awesome to walk around with him and see people's faces go from kinda blank and distracted to lit up and smiling as he walks past them.]
Part of the reason I love the hippie community I spend much of my summer with (Festival season starts next weekend!!!) is this attitude: that if you see someone who needs help, you help them. I try to bring that attitude to my daily life, and it seems to serve me well.
When I started going to music festivals 5 years ago I had never been camping before, and didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have a car or any camping supplies either, which didn't help. But a friend of mine had a huge tent that I was able to share, someone gave me a ride there and another person we found at the festival who lived closer to me gave me a ride back home, the surrounding people at the fest had food and other supplies, and everyone shared and helped each other out.
Now that I'm a little older and more experienced, I'm the one who brings extra food to give to friendly passerbys and neighbors, who helps newcomers assemble their new tents and lends them a mallet for their tent poles, and who offers rides to people without cars. Not because I expect those people to give me something back (although people usually will offer something in return, because they're just nice that way), but because people like that were very important to me when I was joining this community, and I want to help other people who are like me 5 years ago. And I find actually that I feel a lot better about myself and am genuinely happy about it when I am the one giving things away rather than the one getting things that are given away.
Now I'm sure someone is going to come up with some clever comment about how it's my 'jewish soul' that is naturally more charitable or something. But honestly, I wasn't like that at ALL when I was more involved in the Jewish community. I was much more wrapped up in myself, I would be downright rude to people, and it kinda made me happy to see other people fail. I was kinda a bitch, in retrospect. Part of that was of course how utterly miserable I was during the 7 years between losing my faith in orthodox judaism and moving out of my parents house, when I had to hide what I was doing as if it were shameful (which to my parents and everyone I knew, it was).
This concept that giving is good (and makes you feel good) is something I learned from the hippies I'm friends with. And my joining the hippie community entirely coincided with me leaving the last vestiges of an Orthodox Jewish life- I went to my first jam-band show right after I ate non-kosher chicken for the first time, and my first music festival about 3 days after trying non-kosher beef for the first time (that was the big thing I held onto the longest- I stopped keeping shabbas at age 15, but I didn't eat any kind of non-kosher meat products until midway through my senior year of college, and didn't try things like bacon and shrimp (and crabs, and lobster, and lobster mashed potatoes, and coconut covered shrimp...mmmmmmm) until 2 or 3 years ago).
This also coincided with my ex-fiance breaking up with me (after a 4 year relationship that lasted through most of college) applying to graduate schools, graduating college, and moving away from my parents house- so at the point at which my entire life changed, in retrospect, my entire personality and philosophy about life changed as well. People who I'm friends with from my past (orthodox) life mentioned several times that after I moved away from my parents to go to grad school, I seemed much more happy, nicer, and much less cynical. In fact, even since moving here I've been moving more in that direction- I recently ran into someone at school I hadn't really talked to in about 3 years (when we worked on a major project together and got to know each other pretty well)- he said something very snarky and bitter, I made a comment about it, and he was like "wow, you really have changed a lot -you used to be one of the most cynical and bitter people I know, now you are almost downright normal." I don't know if that's a compliment or what, but I know that since I've last talked to this guy, I met B, and being with B has made me into a happier and calmer and less cynical person.
Back to the hippies- having this amazing community of people to enter gave me social support when I needed it the most (just as I was leaving the pre-established community of Orthodox Jews that I had relied on my whole life). More importantly, they showed me that people were wrong when they said that all 'goys' were miserable and shallow and obsessed with materialism and "gashmius" [the physical (rather than spiritual) world]. That my mother was wrong when she said that no one who wasn't jewish would ever truly be my friend, and that they were all secretly anti-semetic and waiting to stab me in the back. And that you don't need to follow a particular religion to be a good person- in fact, my hippie friends are the nicest and most generous people I have ever met and most are either atheists, agnostics, or some kind of non-mainstream pagan-ish religion.
When I teach my future children lessons in morality, it will be the hippie kind of morality, and not the kind of morality my parents claim is the only true way to live. The hippie kind of morality that says it's better to give than to receive, to leave only footprints behind, to live as simply as you can, and to make a positive contribution to the world. Are your actions making the world better for other people, even just one other person? Which has a bigger and more positive impact on the world; praying 3 times a day, not using electricity on Saturdays, and only eating certain kinds of food? Or just giving a hungry stranger a granola bar?
--------------------------------------
P.S. I'm getting married exactly 2 weeks from today!
As a very much self-proclaimed old hippie, I loved that post. The hippies sort of saved my life when I was young and I can relate. I'm so glad you found your clan.
ReplyDeleteAnd YAY! You're getting married in two weeks to your best friend, the man you love!
I celebrate you, Ms. Eden. I do!
> I was much more wrapped up in myself, I would be downright rude to people, and it kinda made me happy to see other people fail.
ReplyDeleteI can totally relate. I was such a vindictive and petty person when I was frum. And the crazy thing is that when I go back to the frum world for any extended period of time, I feel those attitutdes creeping right back into my mind.
I had to hide what I was doing as if it were shameful (which to my parents and everyone I knew, it was)..
ReplyDeleteI can totally relate.
Strange how despite the fact that you have yet to be judged by your peer group for carrying out these covert transgressions, one punishes oneself for these "sins" despite knowing that what you are doing is only wrong, if judging by a standard to which you no longer subscribe.
I'm not usually one to proselytize, but you should look in Ethical culture. It's a humanist faith that's been around since 1875. (Started by a former rabbinical student, Felix Adler)
ReplyDeleteI was never much of a joiner but when my kids were little, I joined the Teaneck society so they could attend the Sunday school and I've been hooked ever since. It's an intentional community based on doing good works. We've not specifically athiestic, we're NON-theistic. God is beside the point.
Every Sunday we meet and listen or participate in a talk about some current social issue. We then get together and have coffee and continue the conversation. We also do various good works for people and support all kinds of progressive causes.
I think there may be a society in Philly. The reason I mention it is because there's been a lot of press lately about the explosion in non-traditional, humanistic and athiestic faiths in this country. I think people ought to be aware that these types of groups are out there and growing stronger every day.
Oh, I hope you can relax and enjoy your wedding day!
ReplyDeleteAs we old hippies say - don't let the assholes bring you down.
"That my mother was wrong when she said that no one who wasn't jewish would ever truly be my friend, and that they were all secretly anti-semetic and waiting to stab me in the back. "
ReplyDeleteI can't tell you how much I can relate to this. When I was a bridesmaid at my Hispanic, Catholic friend's wedding, my (OJ)childhood best friend asked me how I could be sure that she wasn't really an antisemite! I thought she was totally nuts. . .guess she wasn't the only one spouting this irrational stuff (though to my parents' credit, my parents never did).
heh, i love how many people have related to different things in this post :)
ReplyDelete"Which has a bigger and more positive impact on the world; praying 3 times a day, not using electricity on Saturdays, and only eating certain kinds of food? Or just giving a hungry stranger a granola bar?"
ReplyDeletePlease.
Which has a bigger and more positive impact on the world; meditating every morning, listening to rock music, and only eating organic foods? Or just giving a poor stranger tzedaka?
Just curious, how many of your hippie friends have productive jobs in the real world? Seems to me that 'living simply and leaving only footsteps' would make it difficult to change things for the better on the industrial scale we have today. I give far more credit to the "suit" who created the cure for whatever disease even if he was a jerk to everyone he met.
orthoprax- watch out, you're argument rests on a whole bunch of mistaken assumptions.
ReplyDeletePretty much every one of my hippie friends is gainfully employed except the few who have been laid off in the current recession- many of them in working class jobs (such as construction) which I'm sure are not up to your standards of 'employment', but employed nonetheless. My hippie friends are in their late 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s-they have kids of their own to support, they arn't trust fund kids going to Dave Matthews band concerts.
And many do have jobs that have positive impacts on the world- several social workers and social work related professions, doctors, lawyers, a whole lot work in NGOs and the non profit sector. Several have actually STARTED non profits, such as "Strangers helping strangers" a charity that runs a food drive at pretty much every festival on the east coast and donates to local food banks.
Not that everyone has an amazing and meaningful job, but many do.
Don't assume we're all sitting around getting high and giggling all day in tye die t shirts, just because that's what hippies look like on tv.
Also, arguably eating organic does have a positive impact on the world because there's less chemicals being used to grow your food, and therefore being run off into the water when it rains. :) Don't even get me started on the environmental benefits of vegetarianism and/or the eating local movement.
Hippies are great. No, seriously, they are. My parents are hippies so I'm intricately familiar with them. So glad you've found a home. And *squee!* two weeks!
ReplyDeleteAnd what does gainfully employed have to do with being a good person? Honestly?
ReplyDeleteYou got to love when a guy named "Orthoprax" drops by to discredit hippies and assume that they are lazy do nothings.
ReplyDeleteSo classic. Some guy, who by his own moniker makes an admission that he is living a life he doesn't believe in, needing to stroke his own ego by dismissing others who have had the courage to discover a life outside of Orthodoxy and find, shockingly, that there are good people living good lives out there too. Cognitive dissonance can be intense.
Wonder if he could open his mind to the idea that such a phenomenon exists, if he could continue to justify his Orthoprax life to himself.
AE,
ReplyDelete"many of them in working class jobs (such as construction) which I'm sure are not up to your standards of 'employment', but employed nonetheless."
Actually that's excellent. But I fail to see how building things is in accordance with "leaving only footsteps." Sounds like your friends only act like hippies sometimes, but most of the time they live in the real world.
"My hippie friends are in their late 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s-they have kids of their own to support, they arn't trust fund kids going to Dave Matthews band concerts."
I didn't think they were - I actually figured they were mostly older. But what makes your friends hippies? Do they use drugs, especially psychodelics? Do they travel around the country with barely any money and one or two set of clothes? Do they wear eccentric styles? Are they unconcerned about hygiene? Are they anarchists? Pacifists? Do they promote free love? Did they break away from society to set up a tent city with a standard of living most would associate with poverty? What makes them hippies besides for being nice people?
The idea of a hippie with a responsible job, a settled home and a family of married partners and monogamy is simply not what makes a hippie. It makes a normal guy with a strange hobby.
"a whole lot work in NGOs and the non profit sector. Several have actually STARTED non profits, such as "Strangers helping strangers" a charity that runs a food drive at pretty much every festival on the east coast and donates to local food banks."
Ironically - this kind of work don't impress me much. Instead of these people living on handouts and being a sink of people's wealth maybe they should start a FOR PROFIT business that'll create wealth and even give people jobs! Better to give a man a job than to give him a granola bar. Charity work is what you do on your free time.
Of course, that kind of work is for "squares." Also known as the people who make all non-profit work possible.
"Also, arguably eating organic does have a positive impact on the world because there's less chemicals being used to grow your food, and therefore being run off into the water when it rains."
I'm sorry - that's an argument for growing organic, not for eating it. Of course organic production is also inefficient since it takes more land to grow the same amount of food. If it ever became popular it would contribute directly to slash-and-burn practices in the third world and thereby hasten the detruction of ecosystems and rainforests.
TO,
"You got to love when a guy named "Orthoprax" drops by to discredit hippies and assume that they are lazy do nothings. So classic. Some guy, who by his own moniker makes an admission that he is living a life he doesn't believe in..."
Well I love the person who drops by only to refer to "some guy" in third person and to discredit "some guy" by assuming all sorts of things about him. Well done Ms. Hypocrite.
Classic.
Aunt Becky,
ReplyDelete"And what does gainfully employed have to do with being a good person? Honestly?"
Um, not being a drain on society? If you are able-bodied and able-brained and there are jobs available you are being immoral if you refuse to work and instead rely on handouts.
Of course in today's society, such people don't need to rely on handouts. The government actively seizes wealth and distributes it as entitlements.
AE, with the Hippie ethics you described, you would make an excellent Religious Left Christian :-)
ReplyDeleteSeriously, your description of OJ community describes well ALL tight-knit collectivish religious communities - they are all exactly like that, regardless of denomination.
Religiosity and stupidity go hand in hand - the more religious a person is, the more likely he or she is to be unintelligent single-minded bigoted moron. Traditionally none of the religious communities have ever promoted one's own thinking ability and intelligence - rather blind obedience and adherence to the regulations. Life in such communities must resemble Army - which indeed is hell to anyone anyhow different, such as those who are both overtly intelligent and like to use their own brain.
Being Finn, I am somewhat surprised that there are still people who follow the kashrut regulations to the yod. it just seems there are people whom the letter of the law is more important than the spirit and meaning of the law - to produce healthy food, avoid potentially unhealthy stuff (such as trichineous pork and easily contaminated shellfish) and to produce as little suffering to the slaughtered animal as possible.
Religious people are usually very bigoted, vindictive and petty - your description would fit well on any Christian sects as well. On the other hand, those who stress spirituality rather than religiosity, tend to be far more intelligent, far more thinking, far nicer, and far caring than religious people - and also far more tolerant and less bigoted than those who are strongly religious. Spiritual people tend to also be loners and not to adhere on any denomination or organization - but rather follow their own path.
Once a Hippie gets a productive job, he or she usually becomes a Bourgeoisie Bohemian. Me and my hubby invented that lifestyle years before it became known. It isn't that the one with most toys when he dies, would win. It is that the one who has played with those toys most time with their friends, wins.
Orthoprax, it is very seldom the suits who invent or discover anything. They seldom have the creativity, curiosity and eccentricity what innovation requires.
ReplyDeleteIt is us geeks who innovate. We are creative, we think with our own brains and we do not swallow any readily-chown answers and any regulations we'd consider inane or just plain silly. We are able to think on unconventional ways.
And geeks usually lead very much Hippie lifestyle and have their own geek ethics.
Suits can be ususally found in bureaucracy - in management, HR, finances - in any tasks which do not require creativity or independent thinking but rather adherence to rules or aggressiveness. Suits usually do not bother to learn anything deeper than a coffee cup nor stain their hands in menial tasks. Suits do not innovate. They manage, make money and govern.
Organic farming does not mean slash-and-burn farming. It means recycling all the organic waste back to fields and using it as fertilizer, avoiding using insecticides (using insect-killing germs, predators like spiders and ladybugs and insectivorous birds instead), and avoiding over-fertilizing the fields which contribute water contamination and algae growth. Organic farming is "soft science" by rather controlling the circumstances of life than the very essence of the life itself such as genetic engineering. Playing God without divine wisdom usually leads into tragic consequences.
I myself keep beehives at the roof of my house. It gives us honey and the local fruit and flower growers get their plants pollinated. That is organic farming for beginners.
Orthoprax- are you saying that stay at home moms are a drain on society? Because they (and among them, aunt becky) are not 'gainfully employed' by your definition, and yet I would argue are making a more important contribution than anyone gainfully employed- raising the next generation of people. And they aren't relying on handouts for the government.
ReplyDeleteYou make these all encompassing statements that ignore the realities of most people lives. Are you by any chance a republican?
oh and if you think people now are 'refusing work' you also don't live in the real world.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad how many people place their sense of self worth and judgment of other people on their employment situation..
I'm a grad student relying on government handouts- I'm being funded by an NSF grant, and use that grant to live, and now also use that grant to support B who was just laid off from his job. But somehow I'm better (morally) than someone on welfare, because I'm being paid to do 'research' while they're being paid (a lot less than me) so that their kids can eat!
Let me tell you, their kids eating is definitely more important than my dissertation....but I'm betting you don't think that me living off my government handout is wrong (Since I had to write a research proposal to get it), while they are totally immoral and evil (since all they had to do is be destitute and have no other options).
IM,
ReplyDelete"And geeks usually lead very much Hippie lifestyle and have their own geek ethics"
Can you describe what the hippie lifestyle is exactly?
"Suits can be ususally found in bureaucracy - in management, HR, finances - in any tasks which do not require creativity or independent thinking but rather adherence to rules or aggressiveness."
"Suits" are also the scientists who adhere strongly to the rules of evidence and the successful entrepreneurs who innovate and adhere strongly to the rules of supply and demand.
"Organic farming does not mean slash-and-burn farming."
I don't think you heard my point. Organic farming is inefficient farming. It takes more land to grow the same amount of food. Therefore, if organic farming became popular it would cause more peasant farmers to further slash and burn rainforests in order to make room for their soy crops.
AE,
"are you saying that stay at home moms are a drain on society?"
That depends.
"Because they (and among them, aunt becky) are not 'gainfully employed' by your definition"
I didn't define "gainfully employed." The term I used was having a "productive job."
"and yet I would argue are making a more important contribution than anyone gainfully employed- raising the next generation of people."
Well, I wouldn't say their work is "more important" but I would agree that they're doing important work.
"oh and if you think people now are 'refusing work' you also don't live in the real world."
Are you saying that there are no people today who refuse to work? Bullhockey! But nevertheless I specifically mentioned the assumption that there are jobs available. Trouble finding work in a downturned economy is understandable.
"Let me tell you, their kids eating is definitely more important than my dissertation....but I'm betting you don't think that me living off my government handout is wrong (Since I had to write a research proposal to get it), while they are totally immoral and evil (since all they had to do is be destitute and have no other options)."
Two points. One, I don't know what kind of work you're doing so I can't say whether it's worthwhile or not. If it's not worthwhile then it's an exercise of fraud on the taxpaying people of this country.
Second, if the family on welfare has the means and ability to earn a living and opts not to then they are perpetrating outright theft from the American public.
"You make these all encompassing statements that ignore the realities of most people lives. Are you by any chance a republican?"
If you pay attention you'd realize I actually make well-circumscribed points. I am not a republican. But now that we're getting into a cozy spirit of accusatory party affiliations - are you by any chance a communist? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, eh?
You still, by the way, have not told me what makes your friends hippies. Can you define what the word means, if anything?
Ortopraxis wrote:
ReplyDeleteCan you describe what the hippie lifestyle is exactly?I'm afraid there are just as many definitions as there are definers, and my definition would be just as good as that of AE or Ms. Moon or anyone. But it can be summarized in Christian Golden Rule (treate your fellow human being as you yourself would like to be treated) and Wiccan First Rede (an it harm none, do what thou wilt). This is not to say Hippies were Christian or Wiccan, though.
"Suits" are also the scientists who adhere strongly to the rules of evidence and the successful entrepreneurs who innovate and adhere strongly to the rules of supply and demand.Scientific method does not ask one's lifestyle, and strict adherence to rules and regulations is seldom creative. Likewise, suits seldom innovate anything by themselves, but rather employ innovations made by someone else. Likewise, adherence to rules of market is nothing creative. Ergo, there are few suits among the scientists.
I don't think you heard my point. Organic farming is inefficient farming.On short term. On long term (speaking in scope of decades or centuries) it is more efficient than power farming.
It takes more land to grow the same amount of food.Yet it doesn't rob the soil the nutrients nor contaminate the soil and waters by overtly amount of nutrients. In long term, it is far more durable way, especially in countries where the ecosystem is fragile.
And most of all, it doesn't make the farmers into de facto serfs of Monsanto or other agricultural oligopolies.
Check out terra preta for truly productive organic farming.
Therefore, if organic farming became popular it would cause more peasant farmers to further slash and burn rainforests in order to make room for their soy crops.This is straw man combined to slippery slope fallacy. First, organic farming does NOT mean being compelled to slash and burn nor chopping down rainforests, and second most organic farmers do not grow soy but rather other agricultural products. And there is no evidence of the causation chain you suggest.
IM,
ReplyDelete"I'm afraid there are just as many definitions as there are definers, and my definition would be just as good as that of AE or Ms. Moon or anyone."
Oh, ok. So it's meaningless. Why are you guys all upset at my bashing hippies if anything and nothing is a hippie?
"Scientific method does not ask one's lifestyle, and strict adherence to rules and regulations is seldom creative. Likewise, suits seldom innovate anything by themselves, but rather employ innovations made by someone else. Likewise, adherence to rules of market is nothing creative. Ergo, there are few suits among the scientists."
Blah blah. Can you define a "suit" - or is this also a meaningless term? I can't have a discussion about classes of people without meaning.
"On short term. On long term (speaking in scope of decades or centuries) it is more efficient than power farming."
No. In terms of land usage it ain't. Period. It'll still take more than an acre to organically grow the same amount of food you could grow on an acre with regular methods.
"Yet it doesn't rob the soil the nutrients nor contaminate the soil and waters by overtly amount of nutrients."
Yes it does. Organic farmers are still reliant on manure - typically from cows. (Notable for being a source that wouldn't exist if the country turned vegetarian.) Just because their nitrogen source is "organic" doesn't make it any less toxic to the waters. In fact, it may be even more toxic because it has the possibility of carrying pathogenic passengers.
"In long term, it is far more durable way, especially in countries where the ecosystem is fragile."
Oh really? If it takes more land to produce the same amount of food - and it relies on large numbers of animals to supply manure, which requires an even greater land burden - then that necessarily results in more land being taken from rainforests and untouched ecosystems to feed the human population.
"And most of all, it doesn't make the farmers into de facto serfs of Monsanto or other agricultural oligopolies."
What makes them serfs? And what's stopping some organic "agriculteral oligopoly" from doing whatever you think Monsanto does?
"This is straw man combined to slippery slope fallacy. First, organic farming does NOT mean being compelled to slash and burn nor chopping down rainforests, and second most organic farmers do not grow soy but rather other agricultural products. And there is no evidence of the causation chain you suggest."
Soy was just a random example. Pick any food crop of your choice. Organic farming always gives less yield per land area. And given that people are already compelled to slash and burn in order to make a living in third world countries, how do you think that would be remediated if they had to take even larger swaths of land in order to stay in business?
Do you guys think Nature is a good source for this debate?
ReplyDeleteUrban myths of organic farming
Anthony Trewavas
Nature 410, 409-410 (22 March 2001)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6827/full/410409a0.html
Whoops, go cut off.
ReplyDeleteHere's the url:
http://tiny.cc/nature635
"Organic farmers are still reliant on manure - typically from cows. (Notable for being a source that wouldn't exist if the country turned vegetarian.)"
ReplyDeleteI think your mistaking Vegetarians with Vegans. Vegans don't eat any animal product including eggs and milk, while vegetarians don't eat animal flesh, but will eat milk or eggs.
Gam,
ReplyDelete"I think your mistaking Vegetarians with Vegans."
Not really. There would hardly be close to the same number of cattle and therefore cattle turds if beef was no longer consumed.
Ortoprax wrote:
ReplyDeleteOh, ok. So it's meaningless..
Nope, it is just that there are many individual definitions. But you may begin here and continue here.
I am no hippie, though. I am a Bobo with hacker ethics. Yet I see no reason on bashing hippies. Just let all flowers bloom (and extirpate the weeds).
Why are you guys all upset at my bashing hippies if anything and nothing is a hippie?.
Because you use prejudicious language and straw man arguments.
Can you define a "suit" - or is this also a meaningless term?.
A "suit" is someone whom the style is of more importance than the substance. (Or at least as much importance.) "Suits" are people whose work doesn't involve in creativity, invention, discovery, research, development or engineering. Typical suits are bureaucrats, lawyers, management, HR, businessmen, politicians and like.
No. In terms of land usage it ain't. Period. It'll still take more than an acre to organically grow the same amount of food you could grow on an acre with regular methods.If you can cultivate the same area of land for a century with organic methods, or a decade with power farming methods (being compelled to abandon it after that time because of erosion and impoverishment of the soil), which will produce more crops per area unit when the scope is a human life?
You are thinking of one single harvest. I am thinking an integral of multiple harvests on multiple decades.
It is awfully easy to over-cultivate the land with power farming and practise rapine cultivation for strive on short-term profits. Such usage impoverishes the soil, causes erosion and is extremely destructive.
Yes it does. Organic farmers are still reliant on manure - typically from cows..
Cow manure is a natural product and will dissolve and decompose on natural means, far slower than readily dissolved nitrates of artificial fertilizers. Manure contaminates the waters far less than fertilizers.
(Notable for being a source that wouldn't exist if the country turned vegetarian.)Vegan. "Vegetarian" may abstain from meat, but may use milk products and eggs which do not involve in killing animals. I am neither vegan nor vegetarian, though.
Just because their nitrogen source is "organic" doesn't make it any less toxic to the waters.It isn't the nitrogen per sé but the solubility. The nitrates of manure dissolve far slower than those of fertilizers, allowing a longer period of fertilization, while the inorganic salts of fertilizers, such as potassium and ammonium nitrate, dissolve readily. They cause a "nitrate high", a sudden surge of nitrates, on soil, which is easily washed away after the next rain, leaving the soil about as poor as it was before, thus requiring a new round of fertilizers.
Manure also contributes as a carbon source for the microfauna of the soil. Fertilizers contain no organic carbon, and do not promote the microfauna (bacteria, fungi etc.)
In fact, it may be even more toxic because it has the possibility of carrying pathogenic passengers..
Pathogenic passengers usually do not survive long outside the organisms whom they are harmful. They are usually at the bottom of the microbial food chain, and especially viruses do not survive long outside living organisms, but are decomposed.
Oh really? If it takes more land to produce the same amount of food.
If it can do that with sustenance, when scope is decades or centuries, the answer is yes.
and it relies on large numbers of animals to supply manure, which requires an even greater land burden -
Not just animals. Any organic matter, including waste paper, can be turned into fertilizing agents. The magic word is pyrolysis, or dry distilling, trivially called charrning. In pyrolysis the organic matter is heated in airless space (such as in a sealed steel drum) where it decomposes into charcoal and volatile organic substances (which can be used as fuel). The product is then ground into small particles and spread on fields. Far better than using ashes - pyrolysis do not destroy easily decomposed inorganic salts, such as nitrates, which happens on burning.
then that necessarily results in more land being taken from rainforests and untouched ecosystems to feed the human population.You do not take erosion, soil impoverishment, soil contamination and water contamination into account, which occurs due to power farming.
Trust me, I know what I am talking about. I happen to live at taiga - the Northern coniferous forests zone - where the other lung of Earth is, if the rainforests are one. The soil here is about as fragile as there. And we know exactly what the damage power farming has caused on the soil and to waters. We are continuously researching for methods to get rid of artificial fertilizers, insecticides and other pollutants, and of methods of farming which erode the soil.
What makes them serfs?.
Compelling the farmers to purchase their seeds from one producer to be able to practise their trade, effectively shackling them into similar bondage as Medieval serfdom was.
Monsanto has deliberately made their genetically engineered seeds infertile - they produce crops but do not produce offspring - making therefore necessary to purchase new seeds after each harvest. This results in bondage relation not unlike serfdom - the farmer can no more put seed in storage for next sowing nor grow their own seed - but are on the mercy of Monsanto. Such situation leaves the farmers on extremely precarious situation.
And what's stopping some organic "agriculteral oligopoly" from doing whatever you think Monsanto does?.
There are no organic agricultural oligopolies. Organic farming is based pretty much on the same principles as hacker ethics - sharing of information, openness, decentralization, hands-on imperative and community and collaboration.
And given that people are already compelled to slash and burn in order to make a living in third world countries.
No, they aren't. They just not are not aware of more efficient organic methods of agriculture - or they may reject them on basis of cultural, religious or societal reasons - leaving them on mercy of very inefficient slash-and-burn agriculture. For example, slash-and-char is far more efficient and sustainable, and can be performed with same tools and equipment as slash-and-burn. Organic farming is one step towards sustainable agriculture. Often, especially in Africa, the manure is not spread on fields as fertilizer, but rather burnt on open fires for cooking - while there would be immense amount of free solar energy to be employed with inexpensive concave mirrors easily forged from steel plates. Tradition is no excuse for stupidity. And if you did read the terra preta article in Wikipedia, the terra preta is far more productive on similar soil than artificial fertilizers. Here is some more on terra pretaBut if you aim for short-term profits and maximizing the short-term yield with power farming, regardless of erosion, impoverishment of the soil, contamination of the soil and waters and damage to the ecosystem, the choice is yours. The words "Dust Bowl" should ring the bell.
On terra preta and farming: a trivial try for it would be in a flower pot. Which raised my geekish curiosity: can I produce my own terra preta from household waste?
ReplyDeleteI am now planning to build a simple homemade coke oven from a steel can, and produce organic char with it. Not just from barbecue charcoal, but all kinds of food leftovers, paper waste such as junk mail and wood waste such as sawdust and turning chips. The char is then to be ground into fine particles in a roller mill (another steel pot half filled with ball bearings), and used, together with old pottery shards, for making terrra preta for my household plants.
Someone has done it already before, with following results. I've always considered people of India being one of the most clever around.
IM,
ReplyDelete"Nope, it is just that there are many individual definitions."
If you're not willing to define something then you cannot defend it.
"I am a Bobo with hacker ethics. Yet I see no reason on bashing hippies. Just let all flowers bloom (and extirpate the weeds)."
Are you joking? A "'bobo' with hacker ethics." God, you sound so pretentious. Are you even a programmer?
""Suits" are people whose work doesn't involve in creativity, invention, discovery, research, development or engineering."
Oh, and here's the other side. If you already define the word to mean what you're arguing for then no debate is possible. Convenient!
"Because you use prejudicious language and straw man arguments."
I don't think so. I have my own understanding of the term "hippy" and as you noted, mine was just as valid as anyone else's.
"If you can cultivate the same area of land for a century with organic methods, or a decade with power farming methods (being compelled to abandon it after that time because of erosion and impoverishment of the soil),"
Please - how many conventional farms in the midwest have been abandoned? If there's anyone here dealing in strawmen it is you. I'll come back to discuss farming when I get back from work.
AE, please, how do you precisely define "hippie?"
ReplyDeleteSorry that you took away from Ortho Judaism that non-Jews are by nature unethical or that you need to be Jewish in order to be a good person. I must have missed that teaching. ;)
Every time I read one of these postings in your blog, I am amazed at what utterly different upbringings you and I have each had, even though we were both raised Ortho. My parents aren't racist or elitist or hate-filled. I wasn't taught that Jews were superior by birth, but that we had to earn our label as the Chosen People. We are chosen only when we merit the choice through our behavior.
I was taught that the Torah is the best blueprint for moral behavior. But that doesn't imply that there is something, I don't know, genetically wrong with non-Jews because they don't follow the Torah. What a strange thing to believe. I really fault your parents for instilling that in you...it simply isn't Torah Judaism, and I have to wonder how I would have reacted if my upbringing had been so off balance. Perhaps I would have left Ortho Judaism too (or at least the ugly facsimile that your parents and teachers presented to you).
-WG
IM,
ReplyDeleteOk, back from work.
"You are thinking of one single harvest. I am thinking an integral of multiple harvests on multiple decades."
No, I'm thinking for the long term as well. In fact I'm seriously talking about the long term since global populations are massively increasing and available land isn't changing much. If anything we need more efficient land usage by taking full advantage of technological advances and genetic manipulations to increase our yields.
"It is awfully easy to over-cultivate the land with power farming and practise rapine cultivation for strive on short-term profits. Such usage impoverishes the soil, causes erosion and is extremely destructive."
I don't know what you think "power farming" is, but I fully support methods that reduce soil wasting and erosion - duh. However there are basic ways to reduce this like reduced tillage (or no tillage) and proper crop rotations. This, however, has little to do with organic farming qua organic farming.
"Cow manure is a natural product and will dissolve and decompose on natural means, far slower than readily dissolved nitrates of artificial fertilizers. Manure contaminates the waters far less than fertilizers."
True. But firstly, manure does not contain all of a soil's nutrient requirements and organic farms have been found to be constantly losing their phosphate and potassium. And secondly, there simply is not enough manure in the world to fill the potential need if organic farming became too popular. For these reasons conventional farming chemical additives would have to be used.
"Vegan. "Vegetarian" may abstain from meat, but may use milk products and eggs which do not involve in killing animals."
No, as I told Gamzu, I meant vegetarian. How many cows do you think the US economy would support if beef was no longer on the menu? Far far fewer.
"Pathogenic passengers usually do not survive long outside the organisms whom they are harmful."
Which is why farms are mandated to wait 120 days after the use of fresh manure before harvest. They can in fact survive for some time and the risk, though small, is present.
"Not just animals. Any organic matter, including waste paper, can be turned into fertilizing agents. The magic word is pyrolysis, or dry distilling, trivially called charrning."
Ok then, but I question the basic economics and ability to apply such methods on the scales required to feed billions.
"Trust me, I know what I am talking about."
'Fraid not. I trust data.
"Compelling the farmers to purchase their seeds from one producer to be able to practise their trade, effectively shackling them into similar bondage as Medieval serfdom was."
How does Monsanto compel them? What's stopping them from buying seeds from other people?
"There are no organic agricultural oligopolies."
Yet. Guess what would happen if it became popular?
"No, they aren't. They just not are not aware of more efficient organic methods of agriculture"
No, as I explained, because of land requirements and reduced yield organic farming is less economically sound. They don't do organic farming because they can't afford it.
"For example, slash-and-char is far more efficient and sustainable, and can be performed with same tools and equipment as slash-and-burn."
Ok. And this prevents ecosystem and rainforest destruction - how? The point is that organic farms are inefficient in terms of land use. If it becomes popular larger swaths of ranforest will be "slashed." This doesn't change much with respect to what is done with the slashed biomass after the fact.
"Often, especially in Africa, the manure is not spread on fields as fertilizer, but rather burnt on open fires for cooking"
Aha, so you expect the African farmer to lug hundreds of pounds of manure a dozen miles in his wheelbarrel? How ignorant of him!
"And if you did read the terra preta article in Wikipedia, the terra preta is far more productive on similar soil than artificial fertilizers."
I have no problem with that and if it's as good as people claim then great. I'll take good ideas wherever the source. This, however, does not change the fact that organic farming as it is now practiced is inefficient.
"But if you aim for short-term profits and maximizing the short-term yield with power farming, regardless of erosion, impoverishment of the soil, contamination of the soil and waters and damage to the ecosystem, the choice is yours."
My aim is to minimize all of those problems while not creating new ones by popularizing inefficient ideologies. I also don't believe organic farming is sustainable on large scales. I am also in favor of genetic manipulations to make crops that much more high yield and nutritious.
The point is that I am in full favor of taking what we learn, whether being 'organic' practices or not, for solutions to these issues. But there are good - and better - practices found in conventional farming too.
What's funny about this is that all the good traits you learned from neohippie counterculture is stuff I learned from being raised traditional and MOJ.
ReplyDeleteExcept I ignored all the insular crap from the MO end and applied it to all of humanity, influenced by the Hair soundtrack, Pete Seeger and Arlo Guthrie, The Monkees and R'Kooks Fourfold Song. I know you were told you were raised J, but if you weren't running around with "if someone needs help, try to help," that wasn't Judaism. lol.
R'Goldie Milgram simplifies it and ties it to their Hebrew names, but a lot of it's basic, and some I don't keep halachically: http://www.reclaimingjudaism.org/mitzvot/mitzvot.htm
But, then, on the planet on which you were raised/I was raised part-time, women aren't rabbis, even though rabbi just means teacher. lol. I let what doesn't work for me blow away with the wind and keep the cool parts.
Where God fits into it -- I think there's something greater than all of us, that is in each and every one of us and nature, and is bigger than anything conceivable.
Some call it God and make it a dude with a book to write your next year's fate in. Some call it FSM. Potato, clamato.
Whatever works for you is good as long as you're not hurting anyone.
Last night I figured out how to let go of a huge hurt that was taking too much of my emotional energy. I discovered it wasn't about what was done wrong to me, it was about me having let it happen, and I had to say I shouldn't have, and I won't let it happen again, for my own sake.
I'm going to blog about it; I haven't blogged in a few months. Hopefully it'll be up in the next couple of weeks.
Have an awesome time this weekend. :heart:
I started to read the comments but it just prattles on and on...
ReplyDeleteMs AE. I am happy for you. I am happy that you discovered something that makes your soul at peace. May you know only true happiness and peacefullness.
Sincerely,
an Orthodox Rabbi
P.S. You will know you are truly at peace when you don't even think to compare your current situation with a previous one.